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Sean C
New member
Username: Sc88
Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 11:15 pm: | 
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Hi, I live in 92029 in Escondido. I would like to hear some recommendations for antennas for HDTV reception. I am right next to I-15 near the 9th Avenue exit. I am on the east side of a hill that's west of the highway.
for analog reception I use a ChannelMaster 3018 in the attic, followed by a Radioshack antenna amp (12-2507). my attic is limited in space so the antenna can't be rotated by more than a few degrees (yeah, it was a pain to put it up there). I had it pointed to south, just toward the edge of the hill on the right. the elevation of the house helps a bit. but the house is stucco framing on metal mesh on four outer walls. the shingles are concrete slates. there are some power lines crossing I15 several hundred feet ahead of the antenna direction (coming down from the hill). to the right there are also cell towers (also several hundred feet) up the hill. there are a couple of California Pepper trees in the direction of the antenna on the edge of the hill. a couple of houses' roofs are just below the antenna's height. the antenna's direction just clips the slope of the hill.
there's HOA here so I can't put up a pole. with the above setup I get good to moderate analog reception for channels 8, 10, 15 and 51 most of the time. there are also a couple more that are good. I get a lot more channels if I place the antenna out on my back yard just a few feet off the ground. I can also get a couple of LA channels if I point the antenna north that way. neither the HOA nor I want to put the CM3018 there.
www.atennaweb.org shows that there are two directions that DTV comes in: 190 deg (20 miles, red color antenna) for channels 8.1 and 10.1 (CBS and ABC); 150 deg (30 miles, red except KUSI w/ blue) for channels 15.x, 39.1, 69.1, 18.0 (PBS, NBC, WB, KUSI).
I am trying out CM4228, just out on my back yard. if I put a decorated cover over it maybe it's ok with the HOA. I can hang it on some furniture or tree below the fence. there is a wooden fence around the house, and some low level thin shrubs (all lower then the fence). also at that height there's the neighbor's roof.
I don't know if I need a pre-amp. if so what is good? the radio shack one isn't the best... I also don't have an HDTV yet so I am just trying this out to see if I can get any better analog (UHF) signal. yeah I know it's not a fair comparison if I use my analog TV to compare the UHF channels (vs. reception of HDTV on a future receiver). but if I can get the signals just enough this way, then with the digital receiver I should have no problem, right? I don't want to shell out a lot of money yet on an HDTV until I feel comfortable that I can get reception...
thanks in advance for your help. |
Gary Stigall, XETV
Moderator
Username: Garys
Post Number: 301
Registered: 12-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 03:47 pm: |
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If aiming south those analog stations (and presumably 39) without a lot of snow, you should be good to go.
Are you receiving the Mexican stations--21, 27, 33, and 45 for instance--that would assure you can receive Fox digital on 23? (45 and 57 are on the same tower as 23, though they have less signal in your direction.)
By the way, the FCC has given you permission to put up an antenna mast, overriding your homeowners' rules. There are some exceptions having to do with shared space: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
Gary Stigall
Chief Engineer
XETV Fox 6
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Sean C
New member
Username: Sc88
Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 01:48 pm: |
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Thanks Gary! I had no idea about the FCC ruling: I thought that was just for satellites smaller than 1m. I didn't know they ok'ed TV antennas of any size... I will keep that as an option. after all the rule says that if a backyard placement doesn't impair or significantly increase the cost of reception then the rule doen't apply. so hopefully what I try out here doesn't prevent me from using that option in the future.
so I tested out the CM4228 hung off the backyard by about 2 to 3 ft, facing SE direction. I got the Radio Shack antenna amp 12-2507 hooked up to it. that gets me very good (no snow) analog reception for channels 8, 10, 15, 17, 29, 39, 51, 69, and ok reception for 46, 48, 49 and 61. I barely get 6, 12, 27, 33, 36. the others like 45 and 57 probably were too weak so they fell off the "auto-programming". my TV is a cheap Sony 27" just before all analog TV's of similar sizes dropped in prices... so I don't expect the tuner to be that good.
without the RS amp, I get good reception for 8, 15, 39, 51, and ok reception for 10, 49 and a couple of others. it's almost as good as the attic CM3018 followed by an amp. but the attic arrangement isn't as good as the backyard CM4228 with the RS amp.
I tested out the direction and chose the SE because mainly that's where most good signals come from. if I rotate it to South I get some channels better but a few worse. directly South is the ridge of the west side hill... most channels have snow. channels 10 and 12 get ghosts. not sure if that's because of the the west side hill. facing south also made a couple of analog channels have problem locking in (channel 61 and maybe 49). the TV even displayed "check antenna connection" with a wierd internal image when I tune to channel 61...
I would be delighted to get Fox if at all possible. my current setups get a faint channel 6. I think I have a better luck getting Fox if I point the antenna to the LA area. I haven't try that yet. I don't have a digital tuner yet so I can't try XETV... I used to get only Fox when I was in Massachusetts. now I can get everything except Fox. you can say that I miss it...
I think my next step is to try a CM7777 amp. and maybe also try if I get any signals from LA. so far the experiment has convinced me to keep the CM4228, even if I won't make use of the attic setup of CM3018. I should've done this in the first place... maybe I should point that CM3018 up north to hopefully get some LA analog stations... or some local stations from SanMarcos and Encinitas. I hate that west hill... |
Don-RB
Advanced Member
Username: Donrb
Post Number: 1859
Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 04:22 pm: |
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The CM4228 is a UHF antenna so it would have much weaker gain for low VHF channel 6. Luckily XETV-DT (Fox HD) is on UHF channel 23 and should have a lot more gain when you get a HD tuner. You can't really tell a lot about digital reception with only an analog tuner since the frequencies and power is totally different. You could get a cheap used HD tuner off EBAY or buy one at a retail store with a 30day return policy for more accurate testing. |
Sean C
New member
Username: Sc88
Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 02:41 pm: |
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thanks for the good info. I was also surprised to receive channels 8 and 10 with the CM4228. after reading www.hdtvprimer.com and the comparison page http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html I get the idea. the fact that I get a weak signal on analog channel 6 is no help. however after checking http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp for the station power, XETV-DT (23) has 400kW while XETV (6) only has 100kW, from about the same direction and height. Gary can probalby elaborate on that. so hopefully the higher power and the better reception of UHF helps when I get the HD tuner to try.
I didn't see the stations that Gary mentioned above (21, 27, 33, 45 and 57) from www.2150.com. I selected the analog and low power lists already... I will also check my TV's reception. if any came in, it would've been very faint that I deleted it off the auto-channel scan...
so here's another question: is digital reception better than analog reception considering everything else the same? ie, if the same station is broadcasting at the same frequency (or nearby frequencies) from the same tower of the same height and location, one in digital and one in analog, given an average analog TV and average HDTV/tuner, with the same receiving antenna some miles away which one (analog or digital receiver) would get a better reception?
yet another question: is CM7777 or CM7775 better than the RS 12-2507? here are the links:
http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/TitanAmp.htm
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5 F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D2507
when I tested the RS12-2507, I had everything close to the antenna in the back yard. the pre-amp and the DC supply/amplifier are right there, too. the output is connected thru some 100+ft cable with several thru adapters (it was made up of shorter cables). when I keep the adjustable output signal attenuater at max gain (ie, no attenuation), some weak stations show better results. does that mean that I need more than 30dB (15dB preamp + 15dB signal) that the RS12-2507 gives?
damn this thing is addictive. I can see that I can spend more money to pull in more stations. and I am not the one watching TV most of the time! now I wonder if HDTV is really the way to go. my wife doesn't seem to care too much about the quality. but she's the one that watches TV. now if only I don't care about quality that much then I could just settle with an HDTV tuner hooked up to the old analog TV. but who (except my wife) could resist HDTV? if HDTV gets me Fox, maybe I should be happy about that. I can use that as the ticket and convince her with the additional Fox reception...  |
Sean C
New member
Username: Sc88
Post Number: 5
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 03:21 pm: |
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the RS 12-2507 looks awefully like antennacraft's 10G212:
http://www.antennacraft.net/Amps.htm
10G202 doesn't look bad.
I also forgot about the fact that UHF gets blocked more by terrain than VHF. so that's a setback from the higher power and better reception by the UHF antenna for XETV.
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Don-RB
Advanced Member
Username: Donrb
Post Number: 1861
Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 01:17 am: |
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The CM preamps are the best, much lower noise figure than the Radio Shack models. They are worth it if you need the gain. Analog vs digital doesn't affect reception as much as the band VHF vs UHF. UHF needs line of sight more than VHF and is affected by more things like leaves on trees in the way. Non line of sight reception is more spotty on UHF and is affected by temperature inversion particularly now on hot summer days in the evening. Longer distance reception for me in RB of XETV-DT can fade out at times on hot days. |
Sean C
Junior Member
Username: Sc88
Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 03:03 pm: |
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good point. thank god I have good enough line of sight of Mt Miguel for most of the stations I care about. that's the direction of my antenna, too. for upper VHF (channels 8 and 10 that my wife also watches) we don't have line of sight. in fact the west side hill blocks that. but there's a small clear path thru the direction of Lake Hodges (del Dios hwy) that those signals can come thru the high mountains there from La Jolla. I looked at the topo map on Google Earth (found from another thread here). so mainly it's just the west side hill that we are on gives us the problem for that direction.
for XETV-DT if this setup doesn't work I can reuse the antenna up the attic and point it south. I may have to keep two amps (one for each antenna), and sum the two inputs just before they enter the house's cable wiring near the garage. in the garage I can provide the power to the amps so the DC supplies portions go there also. to sum two amplified signals, do I just use a splitter (reversed)?
I noticed that a couple of stations like 61 exhibit some fade in/out a few minutes cycle. that's probably the hot air inversion? I am on a hill and so in fact the Lake Hodges ditch may actually help concentrate some signals up here. but in the line of sight to Mt. Miguel, there's the RB hills and Scripps hills. there's also the immediate neighbor's roof top tip.
may I ask which part of RB are you in?
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Don-RB
Advanced Member
Username: Donrb
Post Number: 1864
Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 04:04 pm: |
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I'm right near the top of the hill overlooking the lake by the golf course next to I-15. Near to the highest point in RB, I'm south of the big RB valley where there is no reception down there, but I'm at about 800feet elevation. The small mountain just north of Mira Mesa blocks my sight to Mt. Soledad, but I get bending of the signal around that mountain so I can get ABC,CBS good most of the time. Mt Miguel I have good line of sight - always good reception there. I've moved my CM4221 antenna around and found a better spot last year and its been solid on XETV/Fox and ABC,CBS since then. |
Sean C
Junior Member
Username: Sc88
Post Number: 9
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 11:03 pm: |
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thanks Don. I was in that big RB valley: right on RB Inn golf course across from Barons. the reception there with an amplified indoor antenna was horrible. it was a rented condo so no outdoor antenna was allowed. the condo was half underground with also stucco siding. and the balcony was facing east... my situation is better now. I am about 800 (ft? also) elevation according to an old topo map at terraserver.microsoft.com. I was at Fry's today buying a 29 cents coupler. but I hate their store policies. so I didn't get their hd tuner. I will let you know how the walmart tuner works out. |
Sean C
Member
Username: Sc88
Post Number: 12
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 03:57 pm: |
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ok. I finally got the Walmart USDTV tuner. it receives 8 digital channels but no XETV-DT. after rotating the antenna towards the hill's south ridge a little bit, I can sometimes get full signal, sometimes 0 signal. it can't lock in onto 23. I didn't try putting the antenna higher, or use a better pre-amp. in any case, the RS pre-amp will have to go back. with or without that pre-amp, I can get the same 8 digital channels with the CM4228 antenna. in fact I can also get the same 8 channels with the existing attic attena setup: CM3018 + a signal amp. all channels are 90% or better signal quality with any of these antenna setups.
if I can't get XETV, then there's no reason to convince my wife to keep the HDTV tuner either... or the CM4228... so now it looks likely that most things if not all will go back.  good thing I haven't invested in an expensive HDTV (monitor) yet. I guess when those come down in price a lot, to have the hd tuner built in maybe I will look at it again.
lesson learned as what they say about real estate: location, location, location!
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Don-RB
Advanced Member
Username: Donrb
Post Number: 1869
Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 02:37 am: |
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Yeah XETV-DT is a toughy way up north. I'm right at the edge of reception in RB, so any more north of me is going to be weaker. Possibly a more sensitive receiver, lower noise CM preamp, and much higher antenna mast might help - but its a lot of work. |
smarsh
Intermediate Member
Username: Smarsh
Post Number: 92
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 07:01 pm: |
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you are going to give it up because you can't get XETV? have you even checked out PBS-HD?
Sam |
Sean C
Member
Username: Sc88
Post Number: 14
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 02:38 pm: |
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yeah. I gave it all up. my NTSC OTA can't get Fox... I was hoping that I could get Fox with HDTV to convince my wife the extra spending. you see, she doesn't care about (should I say, "see") signal quality that much... in the future if I find another reason better than this, then I may look into it again. and my existing setup already can get everything else except XETV: I just need an HD tuner or HDTV. without a HD display it's hard to convince my wife the benefits of HD on an analog TV. I don't blame her... |
jorge valenzuela
Junior Member
Username: Jorgevs
Post Number: 7
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 09:12 pm: |
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same thing happens to me
i got the usdigital tuner and it can't lock XETV.
sometimes full signal, sometimes none.
weird |
Sean C
Member
Username: Sc88
Post Number: 17
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 04:25 pm: |
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need help with HD reception for channels 8 and 10...
alright guys. I finally got upgraded. and the wife is happy: we got an LCD "HDTV" with an RCA ATSC21 tuner at relatively low prices. the TV was from Black Friday for $700 at Fry's. the tuner was like $140 from buy.com. I don't like LCD's especially this one because of the color shift and non-ideal blacks at off angles. but she's happy (for the price mostly).
of course I still don't get XETV. I guess I won't until I can convince my HOA to put up an antenna for me (and everybody else) high enough up the hill.
but I can't get 8.1 or 10.1 even though I get analog 8.0 and 10.0. are those broadcasted at higher UHF channels? how come the RCA tuner can't tune to them when doing the auto scan? I didn't jog down the channels list when I had the USdigital box. but I remember that there were about 8 digital channels, some of which are redundant (5.1 and 69.1, etc). I didn't notice that channels 8.1 and 10.1 were there in the line up or not...
the wife watches channels 8 and 10 a lot. she also wishes to see XETV (Fox) but oh well. how can I pull in 8.1 and 10.1? I guess she's now liking the HD, not so much as the higher definition, just less snow. so maybe even SD would work for her...
help please. |
Sean C
Member
Username: Sc88
Post Number: 18
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 04:46 pm: |
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another stupid question:
how do I dial in a digital channel onto the tuner directly?
for analog channels, I just push "8" then it goes to channel 8. for digital channels do I need to dial 8.1 or something? the RCA tuner has a composite list of analog and digital stations. to channel surf I use the channel up and down. analog and digital channels are numbered sequentially. 15.0 (analog) is followed by 15.1 (digital). how do I add a digital channel or see its signal strength when I can't even direct dial it? |
Don-RB
Advanced Member
Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2139
Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 06:19 pm: |
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KGTV-DT(ABC) is on UHF channel 25 and KFMB-DT(CBS) is on UHF channel 55. From Escondido, you most likely need a good outdoor UHF antenna with good gain on the upper band. I do in Ranch Bernardo - I use a Channel Master model 4221 antenna on a 5foot mast I attached fairly hidden to under the eave on the back side of my house. I'm not familiar with that RCA tuner, but I get good signal strength with a Samsung OTA HD tuner. The Samsung is very sensitive so I can even pick up XETV-DT (channel 23) reliably now, though its 35miles away and thats nearing the limit - it would be tougher further north unless you have good elevation, I'm at about 800feet.
On my HD tuner I can direct dial in a digital/HD channel by using the real channel number (the higher UHF number) not the the virtual channel like 8 or 10.
For the local San Diego digital/HD channels they are:
KGTV-DT (ABC) = 25
KFMB-DT (CBS) = 55
KNSD-DT (NBC) = 40
KSWB-DT (WB) = 19
KPBS-HD (PBS) = 30
XETV-DT (FOX) = 23
KUSI-DT (IND) = 18
(Message edited by Don-RB on December 20, 2005) |
Sean C
Member
Username: Sc88
Post Number: 20
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 09:16 am: |
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thanks Don. looks like I need to get back to the last antenna setup I tried. last night I tried dialing in the physical channel numbers such as 25 and 55. the tuner is trying to lock onto it: the "Digital" light on the front panel came on briefly before it decided that it couldn't lock on, and went to analog 25.0.
with any luck, a high enough 4228 with a pre-amp may do the trick. I've also got to eliminate some of that 100ft cable run... who knows maybe I can pull in XETV on 23. |
Don-RB
Advanced Member
Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2140
Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 01:57 pm: |
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A 4228 has a vary narrow beam reception angle, so you might need a rotor with that due to the span between the 3 broadcast sites. I use the CM4221 model since it has a 60degree reception angle, so I can receive all 3 locations with one pointing direction - due south. I don't even need a preamp! |
Matt Tucker
Junior Member
Username: Escondido_matt
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 02:02 pm: |
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I first tried the 4228 from 92026 Escondido. I could get all the Southern stations including XETV, but had to rotate the antenna to point at the right mountain for the station I was trying to receive.
Don-RB pointed out the much wider reception angle of the 4221 to me. I tried that and got fairly good results. I did add a pre-amp so now I can get all stations except XETV without rotating (great if you Tivo/time record). I get maybe one several second drop out for every five hours of programming I watch.
Matt |
Sean C
Member
Username: Sc88
Post Number: 21
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 02:58 pm: |
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thanks. I will start looking for a 4221. one note about my situation: I am on a hill. the hill top is to West-southwest side (right mountains when facing south), same direction where channels 8 & 10 (and their ditital signals) are from. it's not a big hill but I am guessing that it blocks most of my UHF signals from that direction. the hill top is about 200 ft from my house. between the south staions and my house I see the ridgeline of the slope... basically I think I should be able to get only the south UHF stations, unless I can convince the HOA to put an antenna up near that ridgeline and send the signals to all the owners... or I will need a pretty high mast. VHF comes thru but snowy from the hilltop direction (analog channels 8 and 10). but their digital virtual channels are 25 and 55, also from that direction...
the hill top is at elevation of about 900ft. I am at 800ft. that ridgeline to the south is like 850ft. beyond the hill top is the DelDios mountains and Lake Hodges. there's probably some small clear channel coming thru Lake hodges from the SW direction. but I need to first get over that 900ft hill. |
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