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Jon Rodriguez
New member
Username: Vc_rod
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 11:33 pm: | 
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Hi, all - thought I would start a new thread and post some initial results at getting HDTV reception in the Eastern end of Valley Center.
I put up a Winegard 4400 with no Pre-Amp and temporarily set it facing due south at the end of a mast about roof height (not above roof).
With no 'fine tuning' I was able to get XETV-Fox 6 (65% signal), KFMB-CBS 8 and KGTV-ABC 10 (both at 80-83%).
I hope to add a pre-amp soon for the permanent install and see if I can get any stations from Mt. Miguel (really just want PBS if possible), but think Mt. Miguel may be blocked by terrain.
If I can get 6,8 & 10 from San Diego with the 4400, I would like to add a second larger antenna (a CM 4228, since I have not found the Televes DAT-75 at a reasonable delivered price to the US) on the same mast and point to the more distant Mt. Wilson stations (I can now get KVCR in San Bernadino at 75% and KTLA at 65% with the unamplified 4400).
A few questions about mounting (I apologize in advance for these simple questions, but I'm newbie at this):
1. Can I mount both antennas on the same mast, one right on top of the other so they can be turned at different angles? How much vertical separation between the two of them should I allow (don't want a really tall mast).
2. How do I combine the signals from both antennas onto a single coax so a single UHF OTA signal is combined with the feed from my satellite (particularly if I use pre-amps on both the OTA antennas)?
3. Right now I have a 3 LNB DTV satellite that must have a multi-switch already on it, because I have 4 SAT feeds coming from it, two of which go to separate DTV tuners and two are unused. I would like to combine the signal from the two OTA Antennas with one of the feeds from the satellite, so I can run them all down a single coax to one of the tuners and break it back out to SAT and ANT feeds for that tuner.
To accomplish this, do I use two Diplexors (one after the combined antenna feeds and a second at the tuner) to do this? Is there any particular type of Diplexor that I should use? (I've heard them referred to as dual port and single port, but they look the same)
Thanks for your help!
Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 02:00 pm:
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Hi, all.
I am new to OTA HD reception and am trying to determine what kind of set up I need giving my location.
I live about 1 mile south east of the High School in Valley Center.
I did a little experiment with an indoor amplified antenna - a TERK TV5 and found that with that I could pick up KCVR in San Bernadino with a 65% signal strength (using a DirecTV HR10-250 HD receiver), as well as KTLA (VHF?), but only at 45% or so.....could not get any signal from the San Diego stations...not that I was expecting much from a little indoor antenna. What I really want to do is get the SD stations.
AnntennaWeb says I should be able to pick up the following UHF stations:
DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
KVCR 24 PBS SAN BERNARDINO CA 328° 51.1 24
KSWB 69 WB SAN DIEGO CA 161° 39.5 69
KWHY 22 IND LOS ANGELES CA 304° 90.5 22
KPXN 30 i SAN BERNARDINO CA 314° 75.4 30
KXLA 44 IND RANCHO PALOS VERDES CA 304° 90.5 44
KSCI 18 IND LONG BEACH CA 304° 89.6 18
KUSI 51 IND SAN DIEGO CA 161° 39.4 51
KNSD 39 NBC SAN DIEGO CA 161° 39.5 39
KPBS 15 PBS SAN DIEGO CA 161° 39.4 15
KMEX 34 UNI LOS ANGELES CA 304° 90.4 34
XUPN 49 UPN TIJUANA BC 150° 68.5 49
KLCS 58 PBS LOS ANGELES CA 304° 90.2 58
KCET 28 PBS LOS ANGELES CA 304° 90.2 28
I live near the top of the hill at an elevation of 1800 feet. Hill drops away toward the north, but there is rolling terrain toward the south, with one or two larger hills between me and Escondido.
My car's GPS says my Lon / Lat coordinates are
116 degrees 59'4"W and 33 degrees 15'5"N.
GlobeExplorer shows that my address maps to:
Lat 33.2658216689029
Lon -116.994540873239
Holl_ands, was hoping that if was not too much trouble that you could run a signal propagation prediction of what I could be able to get in from San Diego (or if not good that way, from the LA stations on Mt. Wilson).
I have been looking into the following antennas:
Televes DAT-75
a CM4221
or a DB4 or DB8
Would welcome suggestions about which choice would be best and type of signal amplifiers to use.
Thanks for your help |
Bubby
Junior Member
Username: Bubby
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 01:20 pm: |
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Jon
Same set up as me. Use a combiner (I got one at Radio Shack that works fine) and then diplex as you said. I ran Sat & OTA coax to existing cable/utility box, then diplexed there and used existing house wiring. You will need two diplexors, one where OTA and Sat can come together, and one by the tuner. I got mine from Frye's. I think they are Zenith, and a bit pricy, but they do the job. I combined at the antenna because I then pre amp both antennas. I also have a distribution amp at the cable box (after pre amp) to distribute to multiple rooms. It is after the distribution amp that I diplex. So it looks like:
2 antennas>combined>preamp>preamp power unit>distribution amp>diplexor (with Sat)>house wiring>diplexor>Sat in & OTA in.
Draw it out on paper. It helped me. I learned at this site, so stick with it. Everyone here is very helpful. |
Bubby
Junior Member
Username: Bubby
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 01:29 pm: |
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By the way, in #3, you said you wanted to combine with one of the feeds to go to one tuner, but as I have, a distribution amp will split OTA to different tuners. You would, however, need 4 diplexors to accomplish this. You would have OTA at both tuners, but this makes sense only if they both are HD tuners. |
Jon Rodriguez
New member
Username: Vc_rod
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 09:23 pm: |
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Thank you....helps me to confirm I'm on the right track.....
I've been playing with the antenna placement and finding that is really sensitive.....if I move the mast 40ft east of the spot I got good reception, I lose a couple stations...can see I am going to have to experiment some more..... |
Bubby
Junior Member
Username: Bubby
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:59 am: |
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I had the same issues with sensitivity. Started with a 4221 and had little issues with direction, just pointed N/NW. Bought a 4228 and had to really fine tune the alignment. I placed the 4221 on top (combined), but since LA stations originate from the same spot, didn't really need it. From what I understand, theoretically I have added some gain, but I don't have sophisticated equipment to measure. Since the 4221 was to sit in the garage, I figured it couldn't hurt.
Don't jump to an amplified set up if you don't need to. Read around other postings on this issue. I have found that the pre amp (and dist amp) helped due to long runs of coax, but on a short coax (<50 ft), I get the same signal strength. With my set up containing a combiner, diplexors, and over 125 ft of coax, the amps get me back to the same as a short run from antenna to receiver. Someone on this board said a pre amp can't amplify a signal that isn't there. Obvious enough, and it put the amplification process in perspective for me. My montra (after 6 months of playing around with all this) is if you are getting a good signal, don't muck with it unless circumstances dictate you must. |
Milo Flaska
Intermediate Member
Username: Milod
Post Number: 97
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 01:12 am: |
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Jon-A stronger antenna and a rotor would be your best bet, technically. All things considered, your choice of using a San Diego antenna and a L.A. antenna is not a bad posture. As you have shown, the 4400 accomodates your approximate 40 degree angle on the S.D. stations. Your line of sight to L.A. passes through the Santa Ana Mountains. McClellan reported success with L.A. reception from Red Mountain in western Valley Center. You ruled out the Dat 75 on a cost and availability basis. Study of Holland's thread catalog of antenna characteristics will reveal that the next best choice would be a Winegard HD9095 or 9032 or equivalent Yagi. It also takes less mast space than an 8-bay such as the CM4228.
Valley Center is remote from all TV transmitters so you will need preamps and you will not encounter overload problems. This arrangement should not require an additional distribution amplifier, assuming a reasonably normal set-up.
Assuming the usual separate power supply associated with each preamp, you can then use an ordinary combiner/splitter to combine the signals. Otherwise, if you intend to provide D.C. power through the combiner/splitter, you need one that passes D.C. I would then feed into a 4-way splitter. As previously discussed, combine one of the 4-way splitter outputs with one of the four satellite outputs using a diplexer to supply each viewing/recording desire/location at which you use another diplexer to separate the satellite and OTA signal.
Finally, considering the trip, you may do as well buying a preamp in Escondido. That said, if you are willing to make the trip to San Diego, I will sell you a Winegard AP 4800 high UHF gain/zero VHF gain preamp for $25. It is new, overloaded at my location, and didn't sell on Steal/Deals. I paid $75 for it. |
Milo Flaska
Intermediate Member
Username: Milod
Post Number: 98
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 07:49 am: |
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P.S.--I should have pointed out that a zero gain VHF characteristic could be a detriment if any broadcasters revert for digital transmission. Personally, I am betting on the status quo. Also, the AP4800 is a 50 Ohm device, as are most preamps, and is best used with a 50 Ohm antenna such as those suggested. If your heart is set on an antenna requiring a balun, then as noted by Hollands, it is a better strategy to eliminate the balun and buy a 300 Ohm preamp. Finally, while it has been discussed many times, it might be in order to remind folks that, while combining first and thereby saving a preamp is a tempting strategy, there is significant loss incurred in the combiner, unless you are willing to pop for an expensive combiner costing more than a preamp. |
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General over-the-air (OTA)