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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2350 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 02:50 pm: |
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We got the following note in the mail yesterday from TWC: quote:Time Warner Cable thanks you for choosing us as your video provider. We are writing to our valued CableCARD customers to provide advance notice of important upcoming changes that will affect your ability to watch certain channels if you use a CableCARD-equipped retail device that only provides one way service. These one way devices are also called a "UDCP". Time Warner Cable is rolling out a new two way interactive technology known as Switch Digital Video [sic] (SDV). SDV is a particularly exciting bandwidth breakthrough that makes it possible for us to offer many additional services, including new HD channels and HD versions of popular existing channels, to our customers. SDV allows us to provide these additional services, while at the same time continuing to offer existing services, because channels delivered using SDV are only transmitted over the cable system on an as-needed basis. As a result, SDV uses system capacity more efficiently than the traditional, always-on method. The current CableCARD compatible devices sold at retail can only access one way services. They were not designed to be compatible with SDV, which is a two way service. On July 28, 2008 Time Warner Cable will begin providing a number of our existing, less-viewed channels via SDV. Please see the reverse side of this letter for a list of these channels. This means that beginning July 28 you will not be able to view these channels on your one way CableCARD device. We recognize the frustration this may cause you so Time Warner Cable has worked with the rest of the cable industry and TiVo Inc. to develop an external device called a Tuning Adapter that will allow certain UDCPs, including TiVo Series 3 and TiVo HD digital video recorders, to access channels delivered using SDV. We expect to be able to offer Tuning Adapters to customers with compatible UDCP's later this year. At that time we will provide you with additional information on availability and device compatibility. It is currently contemplated that the Tuning Adapter will be provided at no additional charge. In the meantime until the Tuning Adapter becomes available, a Time Warner Cable digital cable set-top box will be required to view channels migrated to SDV. In addition, certain non-TiVo UDCP models may not work with the Tuning Adapter. We have created a special offer to help you during the transition. Please contact us at (800) 782-6516 if you would like to learn about the offer or have other questions. Either way, we will contact you when the Tuning Adapter is available. We thank you again for choosing Time Warner Cable San Diego.
The reverse side gives the following list of channels:East Coast Premiums (West coast channels still available with CableCARD)| HBO East | Showtime East | Starz East | International Premiums| The Filipino Channel | Saigon Broadcast TV | | Movie Package| Encore East | Encore Action East | Encore Mystery East | | Encore True Stories East | Encore Westerns East | Encore Love Stories East | Spanish Language Package| Cine Latino | Sopresa | Fox Sports en Espanol | | MUN2 | MTV Tr3s | Video Rola | | Canal Sur | CNN en Espanol | Discovery Espanol | | Boomerang Espanol | Toon Disney Espanol | EWTN Espanol | | ESPN Deportes | Gol TV | | Sports Package| ESPNU | ESPNEWS | ESPN Classic | SPEED | | SPEED | Fox Soccer Channel | FCS Pacific | | FCS Central | FCS Atlantic | HorseRacing TV | | Tennis Channels | GSN | NBA TV | | Fuel | CBS College Sports Network | | High Definition Channels| Universal HD | MOJO HD | HD Net | | HD Net Movies | NBA TV HD | |
Overall, we're not being hit too badly at first, with a set of 45 channels, 25 of which are foreign-language channels and east-coast feeds of things where we'll still get the west coast ones non-switched. Only 5 of the switched broadcast channels are HD, two of which I had little use for (MOJO and NBA HD, the latter very rarely having content). I'll miss the "HD VIP Pak" between the end of July and whenever the tuning adapter shows up and if "The Tennis Channel" is removed, I'll probably drop the "Sports Pak" altogether, since its the only thing in it that I watch (except the occasional tennis match on ESPN Classic, which I'm also losing). I suspect that the "special offer to help you during the transition" is a discount on leased digital STBs for a limited time. Apparently Cox Phoenix is offering a leased HD digital STB for the price of a leased CableCARD (about $2/month) for six months. The Tuning Adapter will eventually solve the problem for us TiVo users, but all or most people currently using CableCARDs in their televisions are SOL and are going to have to lease STBs if they care about any of the channels going to switched broadcast. TiVo always said that they expected the Tuning Adapter to be provided at no charge. Everybody doubted it, but it looks as though it might happen (someone posted a similar message at AVS Forums from a Cox system in which they flatly stated that they weren't going to charge for the TA, whereas TWC's wording gives them leeway to change their mind ). Hopefully they'll add a bunch of new HD channels when they move these into SDV, or very soon thereafter. I suspect that any new channels will all be added as switched broadcast video, though I may be wrong. (Message edited by mikeyts on June 28, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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rv65
Intermediate Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 62 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 05:23 pm: |
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No problems for use since we use TWC hardware. No wonder why they got rid of passport. They could have easily made a passport with SDV and all the features TWC would have wanted. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD
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DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2890 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 05:42 pm: |
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Too bad they put the best HD channels on the list: HDnet, HDnetMovies, and Universal HD. Why not put MTV-HD, LifetimeMovies-Hd, Golf/Vs-HD or even TBS-HD(mostly upconverted SD) there instead? |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2353 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 05:46 pm: |
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I'm certain that Passport must have long since been modified to support one or more SDV systems for various customers. It's not rocket science and probably could have been made solely in the underlying middleware and OS (not in the Passport code at all), if it weren't for the necessity of adding a couple of prompts to the UI (i.e., "If you're still watching this channel, please hit SEL", so that people who turn their televisions off while leaving the cable box on and tuned to a switched broadcast service don't hog that bit of bandwidth forever). TWC's choice to switch to Navigator was just a bad management decision which was in no way influenced by necessity. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2354 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 05:48 pm: |
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"Too bad they put the best HD channels on the list: HDnet, HDnetMovies, and Universal HD. Why not put MTV-HD, LifetimeMovies-Hd, Golf/Vs-HD or even TBS-HD(mostly upconverted SD) there instead?" Since the HD VIP Pak channels cost extra, they're probably used by a smaller set of customers and much less likely to be tuned than those others that are included in "Advantage Cable". "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2891 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 10:20 pm: |
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The HD-VIP Pak channels are my own personal most commonly used channels. I watched some programs and movies on all 3 of those HD channels tonight including "Escape from New York" and they still looked good. Are we certain the SDV is active tonight for those channels? Anyway to verify completely? |
   
Bill H
Intermediate Member Username: Bill
Post Number: 64 Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 11:13 pm: |
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DonRB, the letter says these will start being switched on July 28. |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2355 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 10:32 am: |
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In any case, Don, aren't you using an Explorer 8300HD? If so, you won't be affected by the move of those channels to switched broadcast video. Only people using CableCARDs in current generation Unidirectional Digital Cable Ready retail devices will lose access to them, and some of those people, in particular TiVo users like myself, will get it back when the Tuning Adapter becomes available. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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rv65
Intermediate Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 64 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 03:19 pm: |
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I have a feeling that the missing ex adelphia HD channels will be added to the San Diego network. Maybe they will keep them non SDV and make all future HD channels as SDV. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD
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DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2892 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 04:13 pm: |
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I'm concerned that the bitrate, quality and responsiveness of the listed channels might suffer even with the rented TWC digital cable boxes and DVRs. Ah, its next month until the SDV channels start. I hope there will be a way to compare the bitrate/quality of the excellent (for now) HDnet and HDnet movie channels before and after. If the PQ suffers greatly afterwards the value of the HD-VIP pak may decrease. |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2358 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 05:50 pm: |
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If anything, Don, SDV should allow them to stop any bit rate throttling that they're doing, and people in areas which have had it for a while report no change in STB responsiveness. (Reports from The Cable Show are that use of the Tuning Adapter doesn't seem to slow down TiVo, either). I have a few items recorded from HDNet Movies on my TiVo currently:
| Title | Size (GB) | Duration (secs) | Bit Rate (Mbps) | | Deep Cover | 15.64 | 7200 | 17.37 | | Finding Amanda | 13.63 | 6300 | 17.30 | | Serpico | 17.79 | 8101 | 17.56 | It looks like the bit rate of the channel hovers around 17.5 Mbps. We'll remember that and I'll check it again when I get a Tuning Adapter for my TiVo. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Jeff_DML
Advanced Member Username: Jeff_dml
Post Number: 657 Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 09:03 am: |
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pretty good bitrates |
   
DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2893 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 01:09 pm: |
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Yes the HDnet channels have great bitrates right now, BEFORE the switch to SDV next month. Will be interesting to see if the quality remains as excellent as its been up till now. |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1832 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 08:21 pm: |
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I don't think TWC-SD is doing any bit rate throttling on HD channels (at least not yet....). [Only two HD/QAM.] Limitations in SAT feeds to headends are primary culprit. |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2359 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 08:37 pm: |
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Don suspects that channels presented as SDV will be bit-throttled because they're presented as SDV. Bit-throttling is not associated with SDV. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Jeff_DML
Advanced Member Username: Jeff_dml
Post Number: 658 Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 08:46 am: |
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no reason they couldnt start cramming in some SD channels along with 2 HD channels... |
   
JimboG
New member Username: Jimbog
Post Number: 4 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 07:12 pm: |
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Good lord, why not move Lifetime and TBS to SDV instead of HDnet and HDnet movies? I will drop the $9.95 for the HD VIP pack on July 28. Also, the CSR I spoke to set my cable cards to "free" for the next 6 months due to the inconvenience of rolling out SDV prior to the tuning adapter. |
   
JimboG
New member Username: Jimbog
Post Number: 5 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 07:18 pm: |
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Oh, the CSR supervisor I spoke with said that there are only about 4400 cable card customers in the non-Adelphia San Diego division. While this isn't a large number of customers, I suspect these are some of the higher end customers (multiple premium channels, etc) rather than the bottom feeders who can't be bothered to pay their bills. The CSR also mentioned that there are about 250 households per node today and stated that San Diego is running a full 1 GHz cable plant. Makes you wonder what they're wasting the bandwidth on if North County has room for more HD channels than the central part of San Diego? I say just kill off all but 20 analog channels and add any worthwhile HD channel that has actual HD content. Try to stay competitive with DirecTV and at least offer all of Time Warner's own HBO and Cinemax HD channels. |
   
DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2901 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 11:14 pm: |
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[ Good lord, why not move Lifetime and TBS to SDV instead of HDnet and HDnet movies? I will drop the $9.95 for the HD VIP pack on July 28. ] Thats what I suggested awhile back. I am very concerned if HDnet/movies will remain at its great quality on TWC after July 28. They are my favorite and most watched HD channels, I don't think I am alone there. Move the HD channels that carry mostly upconverted SD to SDV instead. |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1834 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 12:18 am: |
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NONE of the current cable boxes or cable modems support 1 GHz. They can't use it until Next Gen cable boxes and DOCSIS 3.0 cable modems are deployed (presumably later this year). |
   
Tom Wellman
Advanced Member Username: Sdtom
Post Number: 107 Registered: 01-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 07:50 am: |
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With the deployment of SDV in TWC's San Diego's service area coming soon, does this mean you will be getting the missing TWC North County HD Channels? Cable Provider: Time Warner Cable (North San Diego County, in Carlsbad) connected via an apple HDMI cable. TV: 26" LCD HDTV 2 Series from Olevia. Set Top Box: Motorola DCH 6416 HD DVR TV: 32" LCD HDTV from Sylvania Set Top Box: Motorola 6200 HD Converter connected by component cables.
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2364 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 08:16 am: |
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They're not "missing". Why would we "miss" them when we've never had them ? Hopefully we'll get them and many more, which is the whole point of SDV. Once they determine an optimum configuration of channels, they'll have virtually limitless bandwidth for carriage of additional HD services. Actually, I'm not certain that they have SDV set up in the ex-Adelphia areas, which would require an entirely different set of additional equipment and software. It's very possible that we in San Diego will end up with many more channels than N. County, at least for a while. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Tom Wellman
Advanced Member Username: Sdtom
Post Number: 108 Registered: 01-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 08:33 am: |
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I wouldnt be surprised at all that SDV deployment in TWC North County's area would take considerably longer. Adelphia had such antiquated systems. I find it to be some sort of quasi miracle we have as many HD channels as we do up here. I would have thought us ex Adelphia customers would be in the same quagmire with that of the TWC Southern California system, plus I'm not sure if SDV is compatible with the Motorola STBs that are used up here. Needless to say TWC North County has some work to do but TWC North County blows Adelphia's HD lineup away. Fortunately with the Motorola STBs, Navigator has seemed to avoided us. Cable Provider: Time Warner Cable (North San Diego County, in Carlsbad) connected via an apple HDMI cable. TV: 26" LCD HDTV 2 Series from Olevia. Set Top Box: Motorola DCH 6416 HD DVR TV: 32" LCD HDTV from Sylvania Set Top Box: Motorola 6200 HD Converter connected by component cables.
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Dana
Advanced Member Username: Danabw
Post Number: 431 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 10:41 am: |
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Would the SDV roll-out mean that we might see HD Tennis Channel soon? That's the one I'm really, really wanting to have... |
   
Michael Horgan
Intermediate Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 88 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 12:54 pm: |
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I'm sure U-verse will get SciFi HD before TWC ever gets it here. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2365 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 01:26 pm: |
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quote:Would the SDV roll-out mean that we might see HD Tennis Channel soon? That's the one I'm really, really wanting to have...
You and me, too. Unfortunately, I doubt that it's high on any cable provider's list of goodies to pick up. I just wonder if they'll introduce a bunch of new channels immediately after bringing SDV online or if they'll wait until they think that have that mastered. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Dana
Advanced Member Username: Danabw
Post Number: 434 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 02:09 pm: |
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Bummer, Michael. I'd buy it as a stand-alone premium if they made it available... TWC seems so timid in general that you'd think they would take the slow/cautious/drag-it-out approach. |
   
Jeff_DML
Advanced Member Username: Jeff_dml
Post Number: 661 Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 03:25 pm: |
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tennisHD seems like a good SDV candidate since it will most likely only be watched when there is tournaments on like right now. Group it with the nfl network. |
   
DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2902 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 04:51 pm: |
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Yes there are several "seasonal" channels that should either be combined with other special event programming or put on the SDV instead of the channels that have 24hour HD programming (HDnet/movies) - like the Fox Sports HD channel that never seems to have anything other than an onscreen message. |
   
Dana
Advanced Member Username: Danabw
Post Number: 436 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 05:05 pm: |
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Tennis is pretty much a year-round sport...four majors, multiple seasons across three surfaces, multiple masters and WTA Tier 1 events, end of year championships, etc. But I'll take what I can get...tennis is a sport that really benefits from HD - that fuzzy little ball is hard to see! :-) |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2368 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 05:57 pm: |
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Things should be put in SDV or not on the basis of how often people tune it and that's something that the service providers can monitor. Having "24hour HD programming" is irrelevant if no one is watching it. Channels that are horrible candidates for switched broadcast are things which are tuned by one or more people in each network edge segment most of the time. The HDNet channels have appeal only for HD video freaks--there have to be large swatches of town where no one even subscribes to that HD VIP Pak. Note that they did put the standard definition Tennis Channel into the switched group and if they'd already had the HD version of the channel I'm sure that it would have joined it. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 101 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2008 - 11:46 am: |
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holl_ands wrote: "NONE of the current cable boxes or cable modems support 1 GHz." The Cisco/SA 8550 series DVRs support 1 GHz (and MPEG 4, and...) |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2371 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2008 - 11:53 am: |
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The Cisco/SA 8550 series are not "current cable boxes". "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 104 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2008 - 12:02 pm: |
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No? What are they? They've been available for a while now. |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2372 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2008 - 12:15 pm: |
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As far as I know, no one has seen one in the wild. Where have you seen one? The product was announced in January and shown at CES at that time. They should start showing up soon, but it will be quite a while before they're widely deployed and able to make any sort of impact in how the cable providers are able to use the high 130 MHz of a 1GHz network. To refer to it as a "current" product is nitpicking. Difficult to sell services that only a fractional percentage of your subs are equiped to access. (Message edited by mikeyts on July 04, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 106 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2008 - 09:57 pm: |
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In the wild? Haven't been to Africa or Montana lately. By available, I mean Cisco/SA has them ready for cable cos. My definition of "current" is simply that they are in the distribution chain. If Cox or TWC wants to add more HD in their current bandwidth, MPEG4 is the way to go, and the 8550 supports MPEG4. |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2375 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 07:45 am: |
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When holl_ands said "NONE of the current cable boxes or cable modems support 1 GHz", I'm fairly certain that he meant "NONE of the cable boxes and cable modems currently in use." Nobody wants a solution that requires total replacement of their deployed leased equipment asset, something that would take tens of millions of dollars worth of new equipment and labor in a market the size of San Diego and take many months to complete, with ROI at a glacial pace. Switched Broadcast Video works, will work on their oldest active digital boxes and costs a fraction so much as replacing all their equipment with Gigahertz-tuning/MPEG4-decoding boxes. SBV gives them virtually endless bandwidth--it's an elegant solution that makes better use of existing resources instead of demanding purchase and installation of new ones. The only strike against SBV is that it doesn't work with existing third-party unidirectional CableCARD devices (and the coming Tuning Adapter will fix that problem for some of those), but that's also true of channels at frequencies above 870 MHz and MPEG4 encodings. Also, Switched Broadcast is already in place and going online later this month--it's a fait accompli. When there are enough Gigahertz-tuning/MPEG4-decoding boxes "in the wild" ( ), they can consider selling consumer services in the >870MHz space and using MPEG4 encodings, but that will be some time from now. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 107 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 11:25 am: |
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Michael Scott wrote: 'When holl_ands said "NONE of the current cable boxes or cable modems support 1 GHz", I'm fairly certain that he meant "NONE of the cable boxes and cable modems currently in use."' In use by whom? Just Cox SD or TWC SD? MPEG4 *is* the future. How long Cox delays in employing future technology is the only question. SBV has its drawbacks, as we will learn. A thought: Why not start sending all HD programming in MPEG4 first, while HD is still relatively new to it's subscribers? That way, only HD STBs have to be MPEG4 compliant. Sure would save a lot of future expense. |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2376 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 12:26 pm: |
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"SBV has its drawbacks, as we will learn." Such as? Name one. "Why not start sending all HD programming in MPEG4 first, while HD is still relatively new to it's subscribers?" Relative to what? HDTV has been broadcast for nearly 10 years now. There are tens of millions of pieces of equipment (if not hundreds of millions) belonging to consumers and cable providers which cannot decode MPEG4. There's nothing that will kill adoption of something faster than telling tens of millions of consumers who've bought HD equipment, "Ooops! We started too soon. We want to switch the underlying techology, so please buy all new stuff." MPEG4 has a life in HD video discs and downloads and IPTV in the near future. It will take a while for it to infiltrate broadcast television, either over-the-air or on cable. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 109 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 10:19 pm: |
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Michael Scott wrote: 'Relative to what? HDTV has been broadcast for nearly 10 years now. There are tens of millions of pieces of equipment (if not hundreds of millions) belonging to consumers and cable providers which cannot decode MPEG4. There's nothing that will kill adoption of something faster than telling tens of millions of consumers who've bought HD equipment, "Ooops! We started too soon. We want to switch the underlying techology, so please buy all new stuff."' Relative to what it will be tomorrow, or a month from now, or a year from now. And cable subscribers don't buy their HD DVRs, they rent them from the cable co. New subscribers should get the 8550. Keep the MPEG2 video for now. The 8550 supports them both. Old 8300 units in need of repair or at EOL would be replaced with 8550 units. Soon, critical mass will be reached and if any 8300 units are in the field (which there wouldn't be if they would stop sending out more), they can be swapped with 8550s and the video switched to MPEG4. I experienced a similar situation with the C-band satellite industry. Due to piracy, the programmers wanted the more secure VCII+ rather than the old VCII. They simply made sure all new equipment was VCII+ and that failed VCII units were replaced with VCII+. Soon, a small percentage of VCII units remained, and they were swapped with VCII+ units. The datastream was then changed to VCII+. All went smoothly. Same situation as the MPEG2/MPEG4 situation. It's NOT an either/or situation. It's choosing the best way to migrate from one to the other. As for your assertion that MPEG4 has no future on cable, it's being used on DBS (DirecTV) now. [With significent bandwidth gain.] |
   
DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2904 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 10:38 pm: |
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Clear QAM channels use MPG2 don't they? They wouldn't want to obsolete all HDTVs with tuners for basic free local channels, I think that would be in violation of FCC rules too. |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2377 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 01:08 am: |
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"As for your assertion that MPEG4 has no future on cable..." What assertion? I said, "It will take a while for it to infiltrate broadcast television, either over-the-air or on cable." If that sounds as though I'm stating that MPEG4 has no future on cable to you, I'm sorry. I do not think that MPEG4 has an immediate future in cable, but I do believe that it will work its way into use at some point in the future (in fact, I believe that the OpenCable 2.x host specification requires MPEG4 decoding), but it's not how I believe that any of the providers intend to address their bandwidth limitations in the short term. Again, SBV works, and doesn't have any drawbacks other than not working with Unidirectional Digital Cable Ready products. Time Warner has bought into it wholesale at this point, having deployed it in 18 major markets by the end of last year (installed and started testing it by that time, with it going active just now in some systems, like ours--see this). HD DVRs are not the bulk of the problem here (though there are a few hundred thousand people using purchased HD cable DVRs out there, including myself). I'd estimate that most people enjoying HD cable right now aren't using DVRs, and I believe that most cable providers have been only buying HD digital STBs, both DVR and non-DVR (mostly non-DVR ones like the Explorer 4250HDC in my housemate's bedroom, connected to a 25" 4:3 standard definition television). The ridiculously high expense of swapping all of this equipment out is not something they're going to assume, limiting MPEG-4 service offerings for quite some while after they start deploying MPEG-4 capable equipment. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 111 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 12:21 pm: |
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"What assertion? I said, "It will take a while for it to infiltrate broadcast television, either over-the-air or on cable." If that sounds as though I'm stating that MPEG4 has no future on cable to you, I'm sorry. I do not think that MPEG4 has an immediate future in cable, but I do believe that it will work its way into use at some point in the future (in fact, I believe that the OpenCable 2.x host specification requires MPEG4 decoding), but it's not how I believe that any of the providers intend to address their bandwidth limitations in the short term." Then you should have no objection to the gradual phase-in of MPEG4 HD DVRs as I detailed above. That is certainly a long-term phase in, as only new HD DVR subscribers would get the new MPEG4 DVRS. That makes more sense than waiting until there are two or three times as many MPEG2 DVRs in the field. "HD DVRs are not the bulk of the problem here (though there are a few hundred thousand people using purchased HD cable DVRs out there, including myself). I'd estimate that most people enjoying HD cable right now aren't using DVRs, and I believe that most cable providers have been only buying HD digital STBs..." The non DVR HD STB MPEG2 units can be phased out in the same way as MPEG2 HD DVR units, beginning with new HD subscribers. MPEG4 non-DVR STBs are available. The timing of the switch over to MPEG4 video is not as crucial as it is to start phasing in MPEG4 equipment. "The ridiculously high expense of swapping all of this equipment out is not something they're going to assume, limiting MPEG-4 service offerings for quite some while after they start deploying MPEG-4 capable equipment." Which is *exactly* what I've been saying. Phase in MPEG4 HD equipment slowly, starting with new HD subscribers. Your continued mantra of 'the ridiculously high expense of swapping all of this equipment out' is exactly what "phasing in" eliminates. Continuing to issue MPEG2 equipment to *NEW* HD subscribers is foolish, a point of view that you seem alternately support and deny. |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2378 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 01:11 pm: |
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Okay, then I misinterpreted you. You said, "SBV has its drawbacks, as we will learn. A thought: Why not start sending all HD programming in MPEG-4 first, while HD is still relatively new to it's subscribers? That way, only HD STBs have to be MPEG-4 compliant. Sure would save a lot of future expense." (You still haven't named a drawback of SBV, BTW). I interpreted "first" to mean before deploying SBV. It will be quite some time before there's enough equipment in the field capable of decoding MPEG-4 to allow them to offer any services encoded that way and it will not help them in their current quest for bandwidth, which is an immediate priority. They have to bring forth a large number of new HD services in the very near future to compete with DirecTV's "up to 150 HD channels" advertising onslaught. SBV is the current plan, at least for TWC, and there are no evident drawbacks. Cox and Comcast are sticking their toes in the SBV water, but TWC has dived in head first, with deployments in most of their major markets. (Comcast has tried severe bit rate throttling to make bandwidth in some markets--so called "HD Lite"--to boos and jeers from their HD loving subs). Even when MPEG-4 services eventually do show up, I expect those channels to primarily be offered as switched broadcasts. It's the only thing that makes any sense. EDIT: I apologize--you did talk about a gradual switch to MPEG-4 capable equipment by attrition a few posts back and I didn't read it carefully enough to pick that up. Sorry. (Message edited by mikeyts on July 06, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Mike Bell
Intermediate Member Username: Ccdengr
Post Number: 49 Registered: 06-2005
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 05:59 pm: |
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"Clear QAM channels use MPG2 don't they?" Yes. In fact, the ATSC has not yet selected any standard for transmission of MPEG-4, though I think there are some candidate standards in circulation. I still don't understand the regulatory requirements for clear QAM transmission, but presumably they will have to be MPEG-2 for the foreseeable future. |
   
Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 113 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 10:40 pm: |
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Michael Scott wrote: "You still haven't named a drawback of SBV, BTW." OK. For starters it's a new technology and it's bound to have bugs. I hope TW customers like being Beta testers. Secondly lack of support for CableCARD 2.0 within the industry, and by "industry" I mean cable companies AND component manufacturers. HDTV manufacturers are still peeved over cable's lack of enthusiastic support for CableCARD 1.0 (one would guess there would BE no CableCARD if it weren't for Congress), and I can find no manufacturer other than Panasonic (high-end only) that has 2.0 capability. Samsung has hinted at it. Does ANY cable company actually HAVE 2.0 cards? Cable wants their subscribers to rent STBs from *them*, unlike "cable ready" TVs and VCRs used with analog. They started adding "digital only" channels, making many return to STB. When TVs with CableCARD capability started appearing, they made acquiring a card as difficult as possible. Now SDV, and no support for CableCARD 2.0. All so you'll rent a STB from them. Congress will be upset - if/when they awake from their election/Iraq/Iran/gas price snooze. Another problem is lack of Cable Company unity on SDV issues. Company 1 puts channels u-z on SDV. Joe subscriber with his $2000 HDTV suddenly can't watch channels u-z with his CableCARD. Joe moves. Company 2 puts channels m-t on SDV. Now, Joe and his CableCARD can't see *those* channels. And if he buys a fancy new TV from Panasonic with 2.0 capability, his cable company doesn't have cards anyway. Back to a rented STB he goes. ACK! BTW, TW SD's couple of dozen channel SDV test and TW NC's ZERO SDV channels is hardly what I'd call "diving in head first." And finally, apology accepted. |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2379 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 12:00 am: |
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"Does ANY cable company actually HAVE 2.0 cards?" "2.0 CableCARDs" are the Multi-Stream CableCARDs (aka M-Cards) that come pre-installed in every 8300HDC and 4250HDC in the field; there are two installed in my TiVo Series 3. I think that the NCTA reported that by November their members had distributed some 2.3 million leased STBs with installed CableCARDs and counting. So far as I know, M-Cards are the be-all and end-all of the cards themselves--I haven't heard of any plans for enhancing them past that standard. (CableCARDs are merely devices for authentication and decryption of conditional access service streams--the plan is to replace them altogether with a built-in engine for doing that which can be downloaded with algorithms for proprietary conditional access schemes. That mechanism is called DCAS, for "Downloadable Conditional Access System". No cards to install, just software downloaded into leased and third-party consumer-owned devices remotely by the cable headends). Since the cards are headed into obsolescence, the technology should be referred to as "OpenCable" now. As I stated before, I believe that the the OpenCable 2.1 Host spec requires MPEG-4 capability (and a bunch of other codecs). The 8300HDC and 4250HDC don't have those codecs, but they're probably nominally qualified as OpenCable 2.0 hosts. In any case, OpenCable and CableCARDs have little to do with Switched Broadcast Video. All of the legacy digital cable STBs deployed today can run the SBV protocols and only the ones distributed since last July have CableCARDs or any measure of OpenCable compliance. The only association between OpenCable and SBV is that SBV protocols can be downloaded to run in OCAP compliant devices (the upcoming "<tru2way>" compliant products). So you see, SBV is supported by CableCARD devices that will hit the market in the near term. And serious complaints have been lodged with the FCC about SBV, and the cable industry has moved to deal with those complaints (the Tuning Adapter is one part of their response), but that's a long story. As for SBV being buggy, it's implemented using the same basic digital network video switching technology that's the basis for Video On Demand and those multi-channel trick tiers like inDemand's "Nascar In Car". Scheduled Impulse Pay Per View (IPPV) are switched broadcasts as well. That switching technology has been in use for years. The bandwidth-conserving "Switched Broadcast Video" technology itself has been in operation in several large market deployments (like Time Warner Oceanic in Hawaii) for well over a year and I haven't heard anyone talk about there being any problems with it (just owners of Unidirectional Digital Cable Ready devices--like TiVo Series3--complaining about losing access to services moved to switched broadcast). It's not as though these brand new MPEG-4/Gigahertz-tuning boxes aren't going to be buggy as hell for a long time after they're distributed. TWC will run their horrendous OCAP Digital Navigator on them. TWC is starting with 45 channels as switched broadcasts. Not "a couple of dozen", four dozen . Be assured that they will be adding many, many more by and by, when they're sure that it's all working properly (they're pretty sure or they wouldn't be activating it). By "diving in head first", I refer to deployment of the technology in 18 markets nationwide, some of which have been in operation for over a year. The aforementioned TWC Oceanic has moved all of their digital HD services (other than the local DTV channels) into switched broadcast, which is probably a bit of a waste. It doesn't make sense to move channels that are likely to be tuned by someone in every edge segment all the time, since bandwidth in the SBV pools will be allocated to them and never relinquished. (Message edited by mikeyts on July 07, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 117 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 12:58 pm: |
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MS: "'2.0 CableCARDs' are the Multi-Stream CableCARDs (aka M-Cards)..." No. Multi-Stream cards (M-Cards) and CableCARD 2.0 cards are two different things. CableCARD 2.0 cards support "tru2way" (VOD, PPV, SDV, etc.) Standard M-cards do not. They just support up to six steams of video at the same time (hence the name Multi-Stream.) From Engadget: "Panasonic isn't wasting anytime integrating the newly renamed CableCARD 2.0 standard into its TVs" and "The big difference this time around is that now your CableCARD enabled HDTV can take advantage of VOD and PPV." And from Wiki: "An "MCard", or "MS-CableCARD" is considered a multiple stream card. It can decode up to six channels simultaneously." And "MCards are sometimes referred to as CableCARD 2.0 cards, although they do not themselves provide any of the CableCARD 2.0 features, such as interactivity." SA uses some proprietary circuitry with their M-cards which makes the 8300 DVR interactive. MS: "In any case, OpenCable and CableCARDs have little to do with Switched Broadcast Video." No? Just that hardware such as HDTVs that were equipped with CableCARD 1.0 circuitry are useless for picking up channels broadcast by SDV. And Cable is NOT making CableCARD 2.0 cards available to owners of the rare 2.0 able HDTV. MS: 'Since the cards are headed into obsolescence, the technology should be referred to as "OpenCable" now.' No, it's known as "tru2way", and Panasonic has HDTVs ready to accept these "tru2way" cards. MS: "As for SBV being buggy, it's implemented using the same basic digital network video switching technology that's the basis for Video On Demand and those multi-channel trick tiers like inDemand's "Nascar In Car". http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/switched-digital-video2.htm "The biggest disadvantage to SDV systems is that there are many components in the system. This means that when problems arise, cable companies might find it difficult to figure out the source of the issue. Problems could start in any section of an SDV system's architecture, and different problems require different solutions. Problems originating from the customer's STB will only affect that one household, but a problem with an SDV server or SRM has the potential to affect thousands of customers and might require teams of technicians to get it back on track. In many cases, cable companies will have to rely on products from multiple vendors to create one SDV system. Some products may have compatibility issues with others, making it challenging for cable companies to deliver reliable service." We'll save the discussion of the ability for cable companies using SBV to gather and market daily or even hourly viewing habits of it's subscribers to advertisers for later, OK? MS: "It's not as though these brand new MPEG-4/Gigahertz-tuning boxes aren't going to be buggy as hell for a long time after they're distributed." MPEG4 boxes have been deployed for years by DBS providers. The actual DVR boxes are quite similar to MPEG2 boxes, but add MPEG4 circuitry. Beside which: What is easier to debug - a STB or an entire system? MS: "TWC will run their horrendous OCAP Digital Navigator on them. *That* is a separate problem of TWC's doing. Poor software doesn't equate to poor hardware. |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1836 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 04:47 pm: |
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Definitions from OpenCable website: http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html ALL CableCARDS are reportedly "CAPABLE" of two-way operations, once uploaded with 2.0 firmware. "The media has frequently reported that first-generation CableCARD 1.0 modules are one-way devices. This is simply not true. CableLabs had always intended to develop the CableCARD module and host receiver standards with two-way capability." "Beginning June 6, 2005, all CableLabs certifications of OpenCable products have been tied to CableCARD-2.0 (or CCIF-2.0) specifications. As of that date, new Cards and new Hosts have been certified to support the CCIF-2.0 and CCCP-2.0 specifications." |
   
TonyB
Advanced Member Username: Tonyb
Post Number: 175 Registered: 11-2002
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 06:30 pm: |
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"OK. For starters it's a new technology and it's bound to have bugs. I hope TW customers like being Beta testers." Isn't that our job? |
   
Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 120 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 09:58 pm: |
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holl_ands wrote: 'ALL CableCARDS are reportedly "CAPABLE" of two-way operations, once uploaded with 2.0 firmware.' Problem is the Java environment that must be present in host devices for CableCARD 2.0 to be implemented. This is new for CableCARD 2.0, and effectively makes 1.0 capable hosts obsolete, forcing rental of the cable companies STB. Do you know of any HDTVs that are CableCARD 2.0? Do you know of any cable companies that are offering 2.0 firmware enabled CableCARDs? Will Cox or TWC provide a 2.0 ready card for a Samsung SMT-H3090 DVR? (Message edited by domino92024 on July 07, 2008) |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2380 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 01:32 am: |
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Once again, "CableCARD 2.0", used as an umbrella term for the technology is a misnomer and a term that shouldn't be used. The CableCARDs were never any more than a single component of the OpenCable technology, a component that will be replaced by DCAS (the cable providers hate the cards, which is why they've always done all that they can to dissaude customers from using them--DCAS lets them buy new equipment which doesn't use them while satisfying the FCC's separable security mandate). The proper term for the technology is OpenCable. All that CableCARDs do is encapsulate, in portable form, code to deal with the proprietary set of protocols and encryption algorithms used on the wire (Motorola's Digicipher, SA's PowerKey, etc). They fit into a slot and communicate with a host device in a fashion specified by CableLabs' CableCARD Interface 2.0 Specification. Using DCAS, the same functions will eventually be performed by code downloaded into a secure processor embedded in Digital Cable Ready products (televisions and STBs), with no CableCARDs involved (and no CableCARD installation and maintenance headache). M-Cards were introduced to the market one year ago. All M-Cards are CableCARD Interface 2.0 (aka, "CCIF 2.0") compliant, and as holl_ands points out, all original S-Cards can be made CCIF 2.0 compliant by a firmware upgrade. The only vital part of interactive services performed by CableCARDs is a set of API calls for low-level communication with the headend. Proprietary wire protocols to implement such communication may vary from system to system and are encapsulated in the CableCARD. The CableCARDs implement these comm functions by making calls to services provided by the host, which contains the actual hardware transceiver used to send the messages: the host sends a request to communicate with the headend to the CableCARD and the CableCARD formulates the proper message and passes it back to the host in a request to transmit a message. As I said before, the Cisco/SA Explorer 8300HDC and Explorer 4250HDC STBs being used by TWC in the non-ex-Adelphia parts of town are OpenCable 2.x compliant, or at least very nearly so. They're loaded with Cisco/SA's Axiom OpenCable Platform (a Java profile), use a single pre-installed M-Card for conditional access on dual tuners and run TWC's OCAP Digital Navigator, an interactive program guide (IPG) which is written in Java for the OpenCable Platform (that Java profile was originally called the "OpenCable Applications Platform" or OCAP--they've recently dropped "Applications" from the name). TWC has been distributing these boxes for the past year, since 1 July 2007, when FCC regs required that all new leased boxes purchased by them use an approved separable security mechanism for conditional access (an M-Card qualifies as such). I don't know what boxes they're buying for the ex-Adelphia territory--whatever they are, they have to use an M-Card while being compatible with Moto networks. I'm sure that Moto offers a range of products to compete with SA's in that space. The commercial name for the set of technologies encompassed by OpenCable 2.1 is "<tru2way>"--that's the logo (with the "angle brackets") which will be emblazoned on interactive Digital Cable Ready products. That set of technologies includes bidirectional communication, FCC approved separable security (M-Card slot now, DCAS later) and the OpenCable Platform (a Java Virtual Machine in which to execute apps written specifically for the OpenCable Java profile). In any case, OpenCable is only peripherally relevant to a discussion of switched broadcast video and only in that code for proprietary SBV protocols will be downloaded into <tru2way> compliant products along with IPGs for execution without any leased STB. Those products are due on the market this year, probably in the Fall, though there were some scheduled for Spring release (I don't think that any have survived CableLabs' OpenCable certification yet). All of TWC's many tens of thousands of deployed legacy digital STBs have been (or soon will be) "upgraded" to run TWC's Digital Navigator IPG (the original, non-Java version, not nearly as horribly bug-ridden as the Java re-write). All of them also have code for the SBV protocols even though they have nothing to do with OpenCable and don't use CableCARDs or even DCAS for conditional access. There's one of those OpenCable platform boxes in the home that I share, in my housemate's bedroom. It's an Explorer 4250HDC--the Java version of Digital Navigator is just plain gruesome. Good for my housemate that he doesn't watch much television . That disparaging analysis of SBV from "How Stuff Works" was interesting, though I don't know how to judge it. Who wrote it and what's their qualification to judge the technology? It's not a survey of problems observed in installed systems, just someone's criticism of the design and his or her perceived potential for problems. ("How Stuff Works'" description of the guy who wrote it is that he's a staff writer with a bachelor's degree in English--I suggest that he made that comment based on something he read elsewhere). I also note that you neglected to quote the end of that paragraph: quote:Even so, SDV systems are an attractive alternative to replacing fiber-optic and coaxial cables with higher capacity lines.
The attraction would be several orders of magnitude lower cost and time-to-market when compared to upgrading an entire system the size of TWC San Diego's with increased real bandwidth. (Message edited by mikeyts on July 08, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Tom Wellman
Advanced Member Username: Sdtom
Post Number: 120 Registered: 01-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 02:15 am: |
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Hey Michael, we use Motorola STB's and DVR's up in ex-Adelphia TWC North County. So does this mean theoretically I would be able to buy any STB instead of leasing, whether it be Scientific Atlanta STB's or Motorola STB's? Personally I wouldn't buy an STB due to the fact there will be some better STB or DVR out there and would rather lease it. Also due to the fact if it breaks down, I can get a new one no charge. Do you think that they will phase out the Moto boxes in TWC North County and replace them with Scientific Atlanta? Cable Provider: Time Warner Cable (North San Diego County, in Carlsbad) connected via an apple HDMI cable. TV: 26" LCD HDTV 2 Series from Olevia. Set Top Box: Motorola DCH 6416 HD DVR TV: 32" LCD HDTV from Sylvania Set Top Box: Motorola DCH6200 HD Converter connected by component cables.
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2382 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 08:13 am: |
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Yes, when they get <tru2way> up and running, you will be able to buy your own STB. (Actually, you can buy your own STB now--TiVo HD and some others--but they aren't <tru2way>-compliant and are incapable of accessing interactive cable services like VOD, IPPV and switched broadcast channels). I don't know that Cisco/SA and Motorola will be selling the stuff that they sell to the cable providers to the public, but plenty of others are getting into the business. There will be <tru2way> televisions which will be downloaded with your cable provider's IPG to be run in the television without an external box--the displayed guide and menus should be indistinguishable from the same stuff running on a leased box. For the past few years, Samsung has been bringing prototype <tru2way> televisions to product shows (since before the "<tru2way>" branding was developed), displaying TWC's awful OCAP Digital Navigator running on them. At this year's The Cable Show in New Orleans, Samsung showed their SMT-3090 <tru2way> compliant DVR running what seems to be Macrovision/Gemstar/Aptiv's Passport Echo IPG (you can see that here on Engadget). I think Samsung may be mostly marketing that to cable providers, though they may also be selling it to consumers. Samsung, Panasonic and others have all announced <tru2way> televisions and Sony recently signed some kind of agreement to use <tru2way> (and to drop their support for a simpler, cheaper-to-implement alternative that a cabal of CE OEMs have asked the FCC to make cable develop and support which they were calling "Digital Cable Ready Plus"). I have no idea what TWC plans to do in the ex-Adelphia region, or in any of the other Moto-network systems that they're running around the nation. They'd initially commissioned the creation of a OpenCable Platform to run on new and legacy Moto boxes so that they could run Navigator on them, but that deal fell through and they haven't announced other plans. (Message edited by mikeyts on July 08, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 123 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 11:40 am: |
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Samsung's SMT-H3090 DVR is <tru2way> compliant. So is their SMT-H3050 STB. Will either TWC or Cox supply cards that allow these units to be truly interactive (so I don't have to rent a DVR or STB from them) ?? Would these boxes then be able to "request" a channel in a SDV environment? |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2384 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 11:48 am: |
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Yes. The M-Cards that TWC has been distributing for the past year in their near-<tru2way>-compliant Cisco/SA boxes (the ones with "C" on the end of their model designation) will work in any of the new <tru2way> products (once one of them makes it out of certification to hit the market ). I'm not sure what Cox is doing; I haven't paid that much attention since I moved to Clairemont Mesa from Oceanside in February, switching from a Cox neighborhood to a TWC one. One thing Cox has done is to finish their 1GHz system upgrade and added a bunch of new HD channels, including the coveted (by me) Sci Fi Channel HD. No equipment currently in use by consumers can tune video in the frequencies above 870MHz, but the upgrade to 1GHz still adds an additional 120 MHz capacity between 750 MHz and 870 MHz, enough to add 40 new HD channels at a full 19.4 Mbps each, should Cox choose to use it that way. To remain competitive with satellite, they're probably going to have to add more new HD channels than that, so they'll probably deploy SBV as well, though who knows exactly when. JimboG reported (back in this post) that a TWC CSR told him that they were running a full 1GHz system, but I don't know that I buy it. If they are, they upgraded from 750MHz with no fanfare whatsoever, while Cox has been crowing it from the rooftops, with multiple PRs on the subject. Time Warner has told the media that they'd be upgrading to 1GHz networks "in selective locations" this year, though they wouldn't disclose what those locations are; it's possible that one of them is here. (Message edited by mikeyts on July 08, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 126 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 12:28 pm: |
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MS: "Yes. The M-Cards that TWC has been distributing for the past year in their near-<tru2way>-compliant Cisco/SA boxes (the ones with "C" on the end of their model designation) will work in any of the new <tru2way> products (once one of them makes it out of certification to hit the market )." Ah...in *their* boxes. Will they provide a 2.0 capable card to users NOT renting boxes from them? MS: "One thing Cox has done is to finish their 1GHz system upgrade and added a bunch of new HD channels, including the coveted (by me) Sci Fi Channel HD. No equipment currently in use by consumers can tune video in the frequencies above 870MHz..." The highest I've seen was when Cox had KTLA at 861 MHz "Clear QAM." [BTW, 95% of what's on SciFi HD is in SD. So, don't feel too bad.] |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2386 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 01:11 pm: |
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RS: "Ah...in *their* boxes. Will they provide a 2.0 capable card to users NOT renting boxes from them?"I have two of them in my TiVo S3 and it's not even capable of using them in M-Mode. I started with two S-Cards, one of which failed multiple times and on the third trip out the guy replaced both with M-Cards. TiVo S3 was designed to be able to use a single M-Card in M-Mode to service both tuners, but they decided to launch the product before the M-Card spec was complete and they could get prototypes to test with. After M-Cards hit the scene, they found out that it doesn't work as planned, so it only uses them in S-Card compatibility mode. They claim to have analyzed the problem and found that they can make it work with a software mod, but it's a risky one that they haven't chosen to push. The more recent TiVo HD model was release post M-Card launch and works properly with a single M-Card. RS: [BTW, 95% of what's on SciFi HD is in SD. So, don't feel too bad.]I know, but I only watch Battlestar Galactica on Sci Fi recently and it is presented in HD. I'll be watching the prequel, Caprica, if it gets picked up after its premiere. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1837 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 09:51 pm: |
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PRIMARY REASON for tru2way (aka OCAP) is to enable users to BUY cable boxes, DVRs, HDTVs and PCs, if they so chose. It is a development/marketing agreement between cable (NCTA) and retail (CEA) communities...responding to non-integrated security law. This would enable HDTVs and PCs to implement essentially ALL of the existing and newly developed cable functionalities, and enable the user to move their fancy new INTEGRATED PC or HDTV (with built-in DVR and cable modem) to a new cable system without loss of functions. AND is simpler to operate with only ONE Remote Control device. Other than a few, limited trials (e.g. Samsung iDTV), I have not heard of ANY tru2way deployments, other than in existing, legacy cable boxes & DVRs....this is the "shared pain" part of the non-integrated security agreement....first the cable guys have to get this sucker running....and more or less debugged.... THEN the Next Gen tru2way cable boxes, DVRs, HDTVs and PCs will start to trickle out to retail stores....reportedly this Fall....or later. Meanwhile, we're still waiting for cable companies to begin distributing Next Gen tru2way equipment on a lease basis.... We have a long way to go: Step 1: Get tru2way/OCAP working correctly on existing cable boxes Step 2: Get tru2way working in LEASED Next Gen cable boxes Step 3: tru2way cable boxes/DVRs released to retail stores [With cable company leasing M-CARD to user....] Step 4: tru2way PCs released to retail stores (coincident with DCAS????) (Message edited by holl_ands on July 08, 2008) |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1838 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 10:02 pm: |
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I have not seen any DCR DTV (with CableCARD slot) manufacturers announce whether they would or would not modify their firmware to use the new Tuning Adapter....so far only TiVo.... I doubt very few, if any, have much interest in doing this mod... They would rather sell you a new HDTV.... (Message edited by holl_ands on July 08, 2008) |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1839 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 10:11 pm: |
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Yes, all tru2way devices would support SDV. SDV surfing speed is about same as other digital channels, as can be seen NOW by surfing through the 17 SDV channels interspersed from Ch25 through Ch70.... Until you get a "busy" signal....or the DVR reboots....uuurrrrpppp!!!!! |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1840 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 10:17 pm: |
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A significant portion of the new 860-1000 MHz spectrum will be consumed by MoCA: http://electronicdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?AD=1&ArticleID=14604 In-Home HD program distribution via MoCA uses a 50 MHz channel(s). |
   
Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 128 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 11:34 pm: |
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MS wrote: "I have two of them in my TiVo S3 and it's not even capable of using them in M-Mode. I started with two S-Cards, one of which failed multiple times and on the third trip out the guy replaced both with M-Cards." I asked about <true2way> devices. AFAIK, the Series 3 TIVO is not <true2way>, is it? I'll phrase it directly: Will TWC or Cox supply 2.0 capable cards to users of <true2way> hosts that are NOT being rented by them? My original question: 'Samsung's SMT-H3090 DVR is <tru2way> compliant. So is their SMT-H3050 STB. Will either TWC or Cox supply cards that allow these units to be truly interactive (so I don't have to rent a DVR or STB from them) ?? |
   
Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 129 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 11:47 pm: |
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holl_ands wrote: "PRIMARY REASON for tru2way (aka OCAP) is to enable users to BUY cable boxes, DVRs, HDTVs and PCs, if they so chose. It is a development/marketing agreement between cable (NCTA) and retail (CEA) communities...responding to non-integrated security law. Isn't this all contingent on the cable companies actually providing cards to <tru2way> equipment that IS NOT rented from the cable companies? As long as Ma Cable controls distribution of the cards, the consumer will have to rent a card, DVR, or STB from them (if they even provide cards for <tru2way> host devices. Why not let the consumer BUY the card when he/she buys the device? |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1841 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 12:51 am: |
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YES, the appropriate MCARD will be available for lease, so the cable system retains ownership....and can claim damages, including theft of cable services, if you tamper with it.... NO, it will not be available for user purchase, since it contains the decryption chip...and will have to be in the LOCAL cable systems serial number database to be authorized. So if you move to a different cable system, you have to lease a different MCARD. The MCARD will be loaded with appropriate tru2way firmware, in addition to on-line firmware download to retail STB/DVR/HDTV/PC. (Message edited by holl_ands on July 09, 2008) |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2389 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 06:59 am: |
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RE: I asked about <true2way> devices. AFAIK, the Series 3 TIVO is not <true2way>, is it? I'll phrase it directly: Will TWC or Cox supply 2.0 capable cards to users of <true2way> hosts that are NOT being rented by them? My original question: 'Samsung's SMT-H3090 DVR is <tru2way> compliant. So is their SMT-H3050 STB. Will either TWC or Cox supply cards that allow these units to be truly interactive (so I don't have to rent a DVR or STB from them) ??Your question that I responded to was, "Will they provide a 2.0 capable card to users NOT renting boxes from them?" My answer was that they've provided two of them to me for use in my TiVo. While it's not a <tru2way> device, it doesn't make much difference. I'm fairly certain that they no longer buy S-Cards, since they have to buy a ton of M-Cards for use in their leased boxes (a few orders of magnitude more M-Cards than they ever needed S-Cards) and M-Cards are interchangeable with S-Cards in single-stream only devices. I doubt that they ever cost much more in any case and probably cost less, given the much greater quantity that they have to purchase. The cable companies are ruled by FCC regulations. One such regulation requires that they stock CableCARDs and distribute them to their customers who have CableCARD compliant equipment. Specifically, Code of Federal Regulation Title 47, §76.640(b)(3): quote:(3) Cable operators shall ensure, as to all digital cable systems, an adequate supply of PODs that comply with the standards specified in paragraph (b)(2) of this section to ensure convenient access to such PODS by customers. Without limiting the foregoing, cable operators may provide more advanced PODs ( i.e. , PODs that are based on successor standards to those specified in paragraph (b)(2) of this section) to customers whose unidirectional digital cable products are compatible with the more advanced PODs.
"POD" is an acronym for "Point Of Deployment"--POD cards was what they called CableCARDs before they came up with the trade name. M-Cards would fall under that "more advanced PODs" designation and unfortunately they used the phrase "may supply", which could be interpreted as giving the cable providers an option. I'm certain that any cable service provider who tried to deny an M-Card to a customer with compatible equipment under that interpretation would be scolded by the FCC, who would just fix the wording of the regulation. In the end, the cable providers want to sell you service and <tru2way> is their scheme--CableLabs is a non-profit organization created and jointly funded by a group of major cable MSOs; one of its first missions was to develop a standard solution to the Congress' separable security mandate (CableCARD is one such solution). <tru2way> gives the FCC what they want: equipment capable of tuning conditional access cable services--including interactive ones--which can be purchased by consumers and moved from system to system at will. <tru2way> gives the cable providers what they want: near total control of the user interface of the equipment that you use to tune cable, whether it's equipment that you purchased or something that you lease from them. Some of the consumer electronics OEMs are unhappy with the <tru2way> solution, since it's expensive to manufacture, requiring a substantial processor on which to run the OCP Java VM and a ton of memory--it's difficult to fit that into the BOM for a $200 20" television or low-end recording device. (It also minimizes their ability to differentiate themselves from their competitors with user interface, since most of what consumers interact with when using their products will be UI provided by the cable system, identical on every product regardless of manufacturer). Cable's concession to the price concern is the Tuning Adapter; low-end products can be manufactured to be compatible with it for very little additonal cost. The Tuning Adapter doesn't give access to VOD or IPPV, but cable would argue that those high-end services aren't particularly compelling in the low-end equipment space. So, though it's possibly that they could legally refuse to lease an M-Card to you, they have no motive to do so and the FCC wouldn't let them get away with it for long (nor would the FCC be amused). The cable industry invented <tru2way>, the cable industry certifies product compliance with <tru2way> and the cable industry is publicly committed to supporting <tru2way> products. (Message edited by mikeyts on July 09, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2390 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 11:18 am: |
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This little nugget is interesting. A recent CableLabs PR gives the following quote: quote:Glenn Britt, President of Time Warner Cable said, "Tru2way technology will allow the industry to continually enhance the customer experience, ensuring that the latest features and technology are available to our customers nation-wide. Time Warner Cable has already distributed nearly a million tru2way devices, and this agreement further supports the industry's efforts."
So I guess that they consider the Explorer 4250HDC, Explorer 8250HDC and Explorer 8300HDC to be fully <tru2way> compliant. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1844 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 01:32 pm: |
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Reported June 18: TWC-SD enabled SDV/SDB for first set of 13 Digital Simulcast channels: QVC, AMC, A&E, WE, SciFi, CMT, LMN, APL, TVLand, Golf, NGC, Travel & TVGuide. [Errata: NGC was actually BET....duh...] SDV list now includes 18 Digital Simulcast channels and 30 subscription sports channels. The latter were probably changed from VOD to SDV...so unlikely any channels were freed up. QVC(25), FSPRT(31), LIF(32), TRU(39), AMC(43), A&E(45), WE(54), SciFi(57), CMT(58), Hall(60), LMN(61), APL(64), TVLand(65), Golf(67), BET(69), Travel(70), ION(71) & TVGuide(99). MLB Game1-14(810-823), ESPNS1-6(860-864), NBAPrev(870) & NBA Team1-9(871-879). Info based on "SDV" suffix in label on Diagnostic page 23. No HD channels are SDV (yet...), nor could I find any other SDV channels via spot checks throughout digital tiers.... |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2391 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 01:54 pm: |
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So you're saying that that list of channels in the digital simulcast are already provided as switched broadcast? Being a CableCARD user, I'd never know, since they map those channels to the analog versions for us. (All channels listed in the letter are digital-only, so when they goes switched, CableCARD devices will lose access to them completely). So, the curious can already find out how fast tuning SDV is--just tune from, say, NBC (standard def channel 7) to Sci Fi (channel 57) . "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1845 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 03:00 pm: |
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Samsung iDCR was first OCAP/tru2way certified HDTV (not yet for sale): http://www.cablelabs.com/news/pr/2005/05_pr_samsung_082405.html While Panasonic iDCR HDTV has a way to go: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6569480.html ADB-4820C appears to be only tru2way certified cable box...so far: http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=154158&site=cdn Note this was only a couple months ago. A new, streamlined tru2way license agreement was announced at about the same time: http://www.twice.com/article/CA6562111.html So we may be hearing additional tru2way certification announcements in the near future. CableLabs Qual/Certification list contains mostly Cable Modems (CM), Cable Modem Termination Systems (CMTS at headend), routers, etc: http://www.cablemodem.com/downloads/Certified_Products.pdf And fol. HD-DVRs with new DOCSIS Gateway (DSG) function: Cisco/Sci-Atl 1500 (???) Cisco/Sci-Atl 8501 (HD-DVR per COMCAST RNG-200 OCAP DVR spec): http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?site=cdn&doc_id=135898 http://www.cisco.com/web/consumer/products/settop-rng200.html http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7010476.pdf [Includes H.264/MPEG4, VC-1, 1080p, 1 GHz, MoCA, etc.] [Looks and sounds like the 8550 series....] Motorola DCT3412/2305 (existing legacy HD-DVR): http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/products/DCT3400/downloads/DCT3400.pdf Pace Micro TDC575D (existing legacy HD-DVR): http://www.pace.com/media/corporate/PDF/manuals/tdc575d_spec.pdf Pace Micro TDC775D (existing legacy HD-DVR): http://www.pace.com/media/americas/PDF/manuals/tdc775_spec.pdf Cisco/Sci-Atl 8300 DVLPR (e.g. SA8300HDC...or HD?) =============================================== Note absence of ADB-4820C HD-DVR in the list or ANY tru2way specs If there is another tru2way certification list on CableLabs webpage, I haven't been able to find it.... And Cisco cable boxes likely don't need to be tru2way certified to be used with Cisco headends...esp since they are still in debug mode... ======================================= FYI: DSG is new DOCSIS Set-Top Gateway feature with much higher data rate than FDC channel (speeds up Guide update): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS_Set-top_Gateway PS: More re COMCAST RNG specs: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6297833.html?industryid=47194 PPS: COMCAST is also testing Cisco boxes marked "RNG-200". (Message edited by holl_ands on July 09, 2008) |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1846 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 03:07 pm: |
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SDV tuning speed is no different than normal digital channel. Which means 1-2 seconds...and more if changing to a different resolution setting....and much slower than analog.... |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2392 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 11:16 am: |
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I've discovered from this post on TiVo Community Forums that the "special offer to help you during the transition" mentioned in the letter is a choice of either the lease of an STB for 6 months for free (with which CableCARD users can continue viewing the services that they're losing access to) OR suspension of the charges for up to 2 CableCARDs for 6 months. (Message edited by mikeyts on July 10, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 131 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 11:55 am: |
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MS: 'Your question that I responded to was, "Will they provide a 2.0 capable card to users NOT renting boxes from them?' Follow the thread. My *original* question was about <tru2way> hosts, but your answer was specific to only TWC leased equipment. MS: 'My answer was that they've provided two of them to me for use in my TiVo. While it's not a <tru2way> device, it doesn't make much difference.' Sure it does, if they are hell bent on increasing STB rentals due to SDV. MS: 'The cable companies are ruled by FCC regulations. One such regulation requires that they stock CableCARDs and distribute them to their customers who have CableCARD compliant equipment. Specifically, Code of Federal Regulation Title 47, §76.640(b)(3)' I guess time will tell if they willingly do this, or raise the rental price higher than the present higher than needed price. DirecTV GIVES AWAY its equipment in return for a programming commitment. Cable could do the same, but it LOVES those monthly rental fees. MS: 'So, though it's possibly that they could legally refuse to lease an M-Card to you, they have no motive to do so and the FCC wouldn't let them get away with it for long (nor would the FCC be amused).' No motive to do so? $6+ per month STB rental fee is not motive? And as far as the FCC goes, you know how long it takes to get a minor complaint through the FCC? And what percentage of customers even *know* they have that option? And out of those, the percentage that would bother with the hassle? The cable companies could very easily drag their feet over this one. |
   
Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 132 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 12:18 pm: |
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holl_ands wrote: "ADB-4820C appears to be only tru2way certified cable box...so far: http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=154158&site=cdn Note this was only a couple months ago. The Samsung SMT-H3050 STB is not <tru2way> certified? http://tinyurl.com/6oal8d holl_ands: "And fol. HD-DVRs with new DOCSIS Gateway (DSG) function:" The Samsung SMT-H3090 HD DVR doesn't qualify? http://tinyurl.com/5jath2 |
   
Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 133 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 12:29 pm: |
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hollands wrote: "PRIMARY REASON for tru2way (aka OCAP) is to enable users to BUY cable boxes, DVRs, HDTVs and PCs, if they so chose. It is a development/marketing agreement between cable (NCTA) and retail (CEA) communities...responding to non-integrated security law. ...while keeping the consumer paying a monthly stipend for renting the card. Dastardly... holl_ands: "THEN the Next Gen tru2way cable boxes, DVRs, HDTVs and PCs will start to trickle out to retail stores....reportedly this Fall....or later." I won't hold my breath waiting. BTW, where are the FIRST generation <tru2way> boxes? |
   
Jeff_DML
Advanced Member Username: Jeff_dml
Post Number: 665 Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 12:34 pm: |
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devils advocate ... at $6 a month a doubt they are making a killing off you. Side benefit is if anything breaks you get a new one and I think they usually upgrade if you complain. |
   
Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 134 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 12:40 pm: |
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holl_ands wrote: "YES, the appropriate MCARD will be available for lease, so the cable system retains ownership....and can claim damages, including theft of cable services, if you tamper with it...." Ownership does not necessarily have to be maintained. See C-band programmers and DirecTV (both in the 90s.) holl_ands: "NO, it will not be available for user purchase, since it contains the decryption chip...and will have to be in the LOCAL cable systems serial number database to be authorized. So if you move to a different cable system, you have to lease a different MCARD." This situation is no different than the VCII, or DirecTV's "smartcard." There were no rental fees on either of those. |
   
Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 135 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 12:48 pm: |
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Jeff_DML wrote: "devils advocate ... at $6 a month a doubt they are making a killing off you. $6/mo x 12 mo/yr x ??number of subscribers = $$$$ This is THREE TIMES as much as they get with CableCARD rentals ($2/mo.) |
   
Jeff_DML
Advanced Member Username: Jeff_dml
Post Number: 666 Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 12:56 pm: |
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yeah but they got to buy the STBs... |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2393 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 04:35 pm: |
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RS: Sure it does, if they are hell bent on increasing STB rentals due to SDV.That's your fantasy. Cable is moving to use switched broadcast because they're being forced to add more HD content by competition from DBS (DirecTV's "up 150 HD channels" campaign). There's no other feasible way for them to do this--switched broadcast is the cheapest and fastest way for them to realize the bandwidth that they need. RS: I guess time will tell if they willingly do this, or raise the rental price higher than the present higher than needed price. DirecTV GIVES AWAY its equipment in return for a programming commitment. Cable could do the same, but it LOVES those monthly rental fees.Actually, TWC has apparently created a 2 year commitment plan with discounted pricing (see the "Special TW pricing if you lock in a 2-year contract" thread in this forum). In any case, they don't have DirecTV's minor market-share--they don't need to jump through quite so many hoops for the customer. They do need to make some effort in order to keep their lion's share of the market from eroding (luckily for them, many of their customers couldn't switch to DBS if they wanted to, living in situations where they have no private access to a spot on which to mount a dish--too many tall trees around their house or the balcony of their apartment faces the wrong direction; the telcos are a threat, but a threat that's not moving very quickly). There's demand for more HD cable service, hence switched broadcast. RS: "No motive to do so? $6+ per month STB rental fee is not motive? And as far as the FCC goes, you know how long it takes to get a minor complaint through the FCC? And what percentage of customers even *know* they have that option? And out of those, the percentage that would bother with the hassle? The cable companies could very easily drag their feet over this one."I find it difficult to believe that STB lease is a major profit center for them. For one thing, they don't get them for free and often what they charge for an install is less than the install cost them, so ROI is realized very slowly. Cable box rental may be a not-insubstantial revenue stream, but's it's also a cost center, requiring that they eat a lot of the cost of sending people out to diagnose and fix problems with faulty boxes. Long ago, the telephone companies realized that the FCC's forcing them to support user-owned equipment with modular phone jacks was one of the best things that could happen. There's very little money in leasing equipment, unless you can demand a fairly substantial price to compensate for the cost of maintenance, and they really can't, for cable boxes. In the beginning of HDTV on cable, cable providers in many places around the country were encrypting their rebroadcasts of local DTV channels (such that people with clear QAM tuning equipment couldn't access them without leasing an STB) and sometimes charging extra for them. Both things break FCC regs--any rebroadcast of a local transmission must be carried as part of the core basic cable tier and nothing in the core basic cable tier can be scrambled or otherwise encrypted. (Cable providers aren't forced to carry both the digital and analog transmissions of a local broadcaster, but if they choose to carry either or both, they have to be provided as core basic cable). At AVS Forum I followed several cases of people fighting cable companies doing this. In every case, the person carefully documented their ignored complaint to a cable provider of FCC reg violation and penned an objection to the FCC (sending a copy to cable company management); the FCC fairly promptly responded (within 2 or 3 months), forcing the cable provider to comply with regs. (It also helps to complain to the local franchising authority as well). As I recall, that happened here with Cox. The speed with which the FCC responds to complaints seems to be proportionate to how important compliance with a regulation is to them. They're dead bang serious about enforcing the regulations created to support the Plug-and-Play-DTV-Over-Cable initiative, which they see as vital to a smooth transition from analog to digital television. The requirement to separate conditional access security mechanisms from leased boxes so that it can be built into equipment for retail market sale to consumers was part of Congress' Telecommunication Act of 1996. It took cable many years begin to satisfy that requirement (with the original S-Cards) and the FCC's patience with the issue has been thoroughly exhausted. In an effort to improve support for CableCARDs in subscriber-owned equipment, the FCC drafted a regulation requiring the cable industry to start using CableCARDs in their own equipment by 1 July 2005, but gave them a requested two year extension (much to the disgust of the electronics industry) to allow completion of the OCAP spec and multi-stream. When the new deadline came up, they tried to get another extension to finish DCAS, but were denied, so they had to roll out boxes with M-Cards. When the FCC accepted unidirectional CableCARD as an initial temporary plug-and-play solution, the cable industry committed to complete the work necessary to eventually deliver a plug-and-play solution that would work with their interactive services. <tru2way> is that solution. As previously stated, many of the CE OEMs aren't crazy about <tru2way> and have formally complained to the FCC that it's too expensive for inclusion in low-end products (cable had presented implementing it as the only way to get switched broadcast tuning into products for sale to consumers). The cable industry responded to that complaint with the Tuning Adapter and has been romancing the OEMs, recently getting some of them to sign a commitment to support <tru2way>, including Sony (see this). As also stated before, TWC has been partnered with Samsung for a while, and Samsung has been coming to tech shows and setting up demos of prototype Samsung televisions running TWC's OCAP Navigator sans STB, for 2 or 3 years now (at least three--a cursory search reveals this PR from early 2005). They know that they may lose some box rentals, but whether those loses will add up to much is questionable. Back in this post, Tom Wellman said: quote:Personally I wouldn't buy an STB due to the fact there will be some better STB or DVR out there and would rather lease it. Also due to the fact if it breaks down, I can get a new one no charge.
I think that the vast majority of TWC's STB-using subs would agree with him. I know that I'd never have bought TiVo Series3 if I hadn't moved from Del Mar to Oceanside (TWC to Cox) and experienced the truly unbearable SARA IPG. A month of using that and $900 for TiVo Series with 3 years service seemed cheap. What we're talking about here is paying for a box so that the cable company can load any arbitrary POS IPG into it, like TWC's horrendously buggy Navigator. So, I don't think there's gonna be any big rush to run out and buy <tru2way> STBs so as to avoid the high cost of leasing a box. As mid- to high-end <tru2way>-compliant televisions filter into the market, some subs who purchase these will realize that they don't need an STB and return any STB they were using with the television they replaced. I imagine that some televisions will become DVRs as well, if you plug an external HDD into them (some will have drives built-in); my Mits Diamond Series panel can do this with an external Firewire drive, using TV Guide On Screen for scheduling recordings. Your expectation that cable providers will try to use switched broadcast to force people to lease STBs is the purest FUD, based on nothing more than paranoia and distrust. (Message edited by mikeyts on July 11, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1848 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 08:35 pm: |
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Neither Samsung iDCR (OCAP/tru2way) HDTV (2005 version) nor any Samsung cable boxes were found in the CableLabs Certification List. In May, Samsung had an opportunity to update tru2way Cert. status, but apparently had nothing new to report: http://www.twice.com/article/CA6562111.html Note they plan to "show" an updated iDCR HDTV "shortly". And TWC has agreed to lease their tru2way HD-STB. Sounds like they are still working on tru2way certifications under the new, streamlined agreement.... ================================================= re FUD: Primary problem with one-way CableCARD was inadequate testing by each HDTV manufacturer...and apparently did not test with CableCARD/M-CARDs from different manufacturers (e.g Cisco & Motorola): http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=65 20031255 [Earlier reports told the same old story.....HDTVs needed firmware update.] Note fewer than 400 K CableCARDs used in DCR HDTVs & TiVo versus 6.2 Mil used in new OCAP/tru2way leased cable boxes. And only 57 K (non-OCAP) CableCards in use by Time Warner Cable, out of roughly 8 Mil total digital subscribers (nationwide). Secondary, related problems were lack of HOST firmware notifications to owners...and cost/difficulty of doing the update. [Fixing Sony Bravia XBR problem involved a 64 MB USB Microdrive.] CableLabs and manufacturers acknowledged inadequate testing and have reportedly taken steps to improve the process. After a manufacturer has shown they can pass several Certification Waves, self-certification by the manufacturer using the CableLabs developed tru2way Test Suite will help to alleviate the test lab bottleneck at CableLabs. [But it STILL has to be tested against the REAL THING!!!!] UpdateLogic has developed a product which can update firmware in the HOST (STB/DVR/HDTV/PC): http://www.broadcastandmedia.com/articles/b2/0c040cb2.asp http://www.updatelogic.com/ Also see "NEWS".... KPBS-DT currently provides OTA firmware to subscribing hosts and TWC-SD (et. al.) is to provide via tru2way cable connection: http://news.backchannelmedia.com/articles/18390/UpdateLogicTM-to-Provide-Update- Services-for-Tru2wayTM-Interactive-Cable-Devices Sony Bravia DTVs with UpdateTV are expected in stores this year, with other DTV manufacturers to follow next year (per my discussion with UpdateLogic rep at NAB2008): http://news.backchannelmedia.com/articles/18390/UpdateLogicTM-to-Provide-Update- Services-for-Tru2wayTM-Interactive-Cable-Devices http://www.nationaldatacast.com/files/UpdateLogic.pdf |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1849 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 08:48 pm: |
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Those older SAT & Cable systems were readily hacked. [Recall that O.J. was ALSO charged with illegal SmartCARD possession.] In order to maintain the excellent security in the current and evolving systems, OWNERSHIP of the security device by the SAT or cable system is considered highly desirable....or bury it in an inaccessible/unhackable (DCAS) chip. It presumably deters hackers since it is OWNED by the SAT/cable system who can sue for both Intellectual Property and physical damages, as well as theft of services if it is tampered with. And nips in the bud any specious argument by the hacker that he/she can do whatever they want with what they "own". [Give or take some Digital Millennium Copyright Act issues.] |
   
Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 137 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 12:28 pm: |
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MS: "Your expectation that cable providers will try to use switched broadcast to force people to lease STBs is the purest FUD, based on nothing more than paranoia and distrust." Hmmm...CableCARD working just fine for all channels. Cable company starts using SDV. Now I can't receive channels that are on SDV. Cable company says I must get STB, or wait until <tru2way> TVs are available. Looks like SDV is forcing STB rental to me. No? I never said or inferred that the *purpose* of SDV was to force rental of STB, just a fortunate (for the cable companies) side effect. |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1852 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 12:42 pm: |
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And next year when they activate IPTV/MPEG4 (at 1080p), Tuning Adapter equipped TiVo owners are gonna complain....again.... |
   
Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 138 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 12:43 pm: |
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holl_ands: "Those older SAT & Cable systems were readily hacked." And GI and the programmers had a PERFECT record in civil and criminal court cases against the distributors and users of that 'hacked' stuff. holl_ands: 'And nips in the bud any specious argument by the hacker that he/she can do whatever they want with what they "own".' That argument didn't hold water then, and it won't now. After a few court cases, defendants stopped using the "I own it" argument entirely. Ownership and/or rental fees are not necessary to stop signal theft. The laws are in place. [Embedded security deep inside VSLI chips helps, too.] |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2395 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 01:49 pm: |
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RS:Hmmm...CableCARD working just fine for all channels. Cable company starts using SDV. Now I can't receive channels that are on SDV. Cable company says I must get STB, or wait until <tru2way> TVs are available. Looks like SDV is forcing STB rental to me. No? I never said or inferred that the *purpose* of SDV was to force rental of STB, just a fortunate (for the cable companies) side effect.Okay--I'll agree with that. However, if you read the letter at the top of the thread, they're being apologetic and contrite about it. They're also giving away six months lease of either a cable STB or up-to-2 CableCARDs to current CableCARD users, by the end of which period we'll presumably be able to either obtain a Tuning Adapter or buy <tru2way> equipment . And for the record, you did say, "Sure it does, if they are hell bent on increasing STB rentals due to SDV", implying that they were going to use switched broadcast to increase their equipment lease revenues, whether they originally intended to use it for that purpose or not. You've been openly arguing that they might refuse to lease M-Cards to people who buy <tru2way> products, in order to force them to lease STBs. holl_ands: And next year when they activate IPTV/MPEG4 (at 1080p), Tuning Adapter equipped TiVo owners are gonna complain....again....}We won't complain any more than we complain about not being able to access VOD and IPPV (particularly since no one will be able to access that without new equipment). The complaint about switched broadcast is that it was taking access to services that we already had away from us, and denying us access to new HD broadcast video services we had every right to believe we'd be able to tune. After the 28th, I won't be able to access some 45 channels with my TiVo until the Tuning Adapter becomes available; thankfully, they were considerately chosen and I was only using three of them. BTW, TiVo Series3 and TiVo HD use two different Broadcom chipsets, both of which are capable of H.264/AVC and VC-1 decoding. An upcoming update will start using this capability, for a YouTube browser that they're adding (it might be the first feature added to TiVo Series3 that won't work on TiVo Series2). They already have a large variety of TiVoCast programs to which users can subscribe (see this), and I'm sure that they're exploring the potential of TiVo to become an IPTV client. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1855 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 03:25 pm: |
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Due to capacity limitation in the Satellite uplinks to cable headends, HBO/SHO/STARZ/TMC are changing dozens of cable headend feeds to H.264/MPEG4: http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=127163&site=cdn http://www.broadcastbuyer.tv/publish/MPEG_60/howtime_Networks_To_Deliver_Smithso nian_Channel_in_High_Definition_MPEG-4_Using_Motorola_Technology_13578.shtml http://connectedhome2go.com/2007/08/31/motorola-takes-hd-encoding-to-the-starz/ This permits two to three times as many HD channels on the SAT uplink compared to original MPEG2 feeds. And many HD channels can be added for every analog uplink channel that is dropped. [4? 6? 8? I haven't looked it up yet...] An MPEG4 to MPEG2 transcoder is needed to feed current linear channels. Which can be eliminated if they use IPTV (or SDV) to Next Gen boxes. [IPTV is preferable since it retransmits vice suffering glitches on SDV.] So even a TiVo with a Tuning Adapter is likely to loose MOST Premium, many sports, most HDVIP and possibly other channels that are readily received via TiVo today: http://www.tvpredictions.com/twhbo061607.htm Next question: will TiVo Series 3 implement two-way IPTV, which would probably use DOCSIS 3.0 channel bonding.... [Uuhhh....that would require an internal hardware mod.]\ PS: Next Gen SDV is also expected to use DOCSIS 3.0 channel bonding. You snooze, you lose.... (Message edited by holl_ands on July 11, 2008) |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2397 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 04:21 pm: |
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holl_ands, that's all in the "I'll believe it when it happens" department. Do you think that the cable industry at large will rapidly deploy next-gen boxes? How many do they have to deploy before they can start selling these next-gen services? How long will it take? I'm sure that I'd have been looking to upgrade from TiVo Series3 by that time, even if it weren't going to be obsoleted by new cable tech. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 139 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 10:20 pm: |
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MS: 'And for the record, you did say, "Sure it does, if they are hell bent on increasing STB rentals due to SDV", implying that they were going to use switched broadcast to increase their equipment lease revenues, whether they originally intended to use it for that purpose or not.' That's *using* SDV to increase STB leasing, as an extra benefit. That's a far cry from instituting SDV for the sole purpose of increased STB leasing. MS: 'They're also giving away six months lease of either a cable STB or up-to-2 CableCARDs to current CableCARD users... I don't care if they gave 10 CableCARDs. They do no good if there aren't any <tru2way> hosts to put them in. Bottom line: The present CableCARD hosts should not have been obsoleted (by SDV) until <tru2way> hosts were on the market. |
   
Larry Greenwald
Advanced Member Username: Humdinger70
Post Number: 448 Registered: 09-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 12:27 am: |
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Hmmm... sounds like TiVo Series 4 (with MPEG-4 decoding) coming soon... |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2400 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 01:19 am: |
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RS: "That's *using* SDV to increase STB leasing, as an extra benefit. That's a far cry from instituting SDV for the sole purpose of increased STB leasing."Nowhere in my posts have I ever said or implied that you said that they "instituted SDV for the sole purpose of increased STB leasing", nor did I ever think that you were saying that. RS: "I don't care if they gave 10 CableCARDs. They do no good if there aren't any <tru2way> hosts to put them in. Bottom line: The present CableCARD hosts should not have been obsoleted (by SDV) until <tru2way> hosts were on the market."It was unavoidable--DirecTV has been advertising "up to 150 HD channels" for a few years now and have gotten almost 100 HD channel up. To remain competitive, cable needs to get a lot more HD channels up ASAP. Though they're expected in the Fall, it could be Spring or longer before <tru2way> devices become available. I doubt that many people would be interested in upgrading their pricey CableCARD equipment just to buy new stuff that can tune switched broadcasts anyway. Note that they gave a choice of one or two free CableCARDs OR one free leased STB for 6 months, for people who just have to have access to those channels. (By reflex I chose the free CableCARDs, but there are two STBs on our bill and it would have saved more money to have them suspend the charge for one of them for six months--oh, well. I don't pay for the STBs, so no skin off mine ). In any case, my TiVo has hardly been "obsoleted" by the loss of access to 45 out of hundreds of channels, only 3 of which I ever used. What will piss me off a little is if they add Sci Fi HD to the list before the TA becomes available. (Message edited by mikeyts on July 12, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Rick Shaw
Advanced Member Username: Domino92024
Post Number: 141 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 11:14 am: |
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MS: 'In any case, my TiVo has hardly been "obsoleted" by the loss of access to 45 out of hundreds of channels, only 3 of which I ever used.' YOU only use three. Someone else might use 30. They might have a different opinion whether or not it has become obsolete. MS: 'What will piss me off a little is if they add Sci Fi HD to the list before the TA becomes available.' You mean Sci Fi "Once in a While" HD? ;) |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2403 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 03:23 pm: |
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RS: "YOU only use three. Someone else might use 30. They might have a different opinion whether or not it has become obsolete."True, but many of us have lost very little. I said, as you did quote, "my TiVo". I can only speak for my TiVo and it has in no way been obsoleted by TWC's initial deployment of SDV. RS: "You mean Sci Fi 'Once in a While' HD? ;)"I mean Sci Fi "Always HD During the Couple of Programs I Watch". I don't give a damn what they do the rest of the time--it's worth the price of admission for HD Battlestar Galactica. Every last one of these HD simulcast channels has begun the same way, with a handful of programs shown in HD and rest in upconverted SD. Slowly over time there's more and more HD. I don't know if it's possible for a channel to launch a HD version of its SD channel with everything in HD from the beginning, but so far, no one has done it. I watch television for the sake of the programming and there is no HD programming that I watch that I wouldn't still be watching if it wasn't in HD. I continue to watch what little I watch on Sci Fi now, in SD; when those programs are available in HD, all the better. There are only a handful of HD-all-the-time channels and some of those are of no use to me (MOJO, for instance). (Message edited by mikeyts on July 12, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1858 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 03:43 pm: |
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At end of Feb when Navigator was initially deployed, Ch1201-1221 contained SDV Test Channels. Two of these SDV Test Channels have now returned: Ch1201 is used for HDNET_SDV Ch1202 is used for HDMOV_SDV I've seen both 585 and 747 MHz QAM freqs used for the above. I didn't see any changes to Digital Simulcast SDV channels reported earlier (Ch99 and below). |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1860 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 04:25 pm: |
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Tuning Adapters from Cisco & Motorola are Certified: http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=159407&site=cdn Also contains info re upcoming TiVo release (with TA support). And TWC "no comment" re plans and schedule.... Although TAs are apparently being tested by cable companies.... |
   
Frank Black
Advanced Member Username: Frank_b
Post Number: 441 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 04:54 pm: |
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I have noticed my channels change somewhat slower. But today I am getting odd messages on some channels between 31 and 49. If you try surfing through those channels, I may get a message that says " A&E is currently unavailable. Press A to try again." So I called TW and they will send someone out to check things out. Anyone else have this problem. Happens to both my boxes. |
   
DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2922 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 06:03 pm: |
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Thats terrible if this channel unavailable stuff is going to be common now. That will make automatic DVR recordings very spotty. |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2414 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 11:24 pm: |
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Frank, we had a brief discussion of this about a week back in another thread, here. Again, Don, they're just experimenting with it now; we don't know how it will work when they launch it on a larger scale than the handful of channels that they're using now. Unfortunate that they have to use some relatively popular channels. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2923 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 12:19 am: |
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Why don't they "experiment" with channels like the home shopping network instead? |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2415 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 01:04 am: |
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According to holl_and's post back here, the 13 channels in the digital simulcast that they're experimenting with does include a shopping channel (QVC) and the TV Guide channel. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2925 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 10:24 pm: |
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I noticed today that Hdnet and Hdnet-movies channels while still available on the usual channels 721&722 also now appear on channels 1201&1202 respectively. The new channel numbers don't appear in the guid listing but you can punch in the numbers directly on the SA8300HD. I only discovered this today by doing a program search (B key) and a program that was coming soon on Hdnet-movies appeared twice under the two different channel numbers in the search results. Is the 1201&1202 the test SDV versions? |
   
Frank Black
Advanced Member Username: Frank_b
Post Number: 442 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 08:25 am: |
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TW said my problem with those SDV channels (like 70 or 43 etc)is due to a cable issue at my home and want to check out my system. I suspect it's more prevalent and is a system wide issue. But I will let them check things out anyway. |
   
DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2926 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 02:07 pm: |
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Ah yes, TWC might be using some of the highest channel frequencies for their testing and SDV and that could show issues on marginal hookups. A few years ago when I first got digital/HD cable installed I had too weak signals on some higher channels especially in the hotter weather when coax cable attenuation increases. I minimized the splitters, used all new good quality ones, and optimized my distribution with a low noise bi-directional cable amplifier at the source, plus local attenuators at the TVs where needed. |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2423 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 02:55 pm: |
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Hopefully they won't place the switched broadcast bandwidth pool in the high frequencies then. Hopefully they realize the problem and the likelihood that it'll create a rash of service calls from people with old, marginal wiring, requiring a large number of truck rolls. (Message edited by mikeyts on July 21, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Mike Mantle
Advanced Member Username: Mm1
Post Number: 316 Registered: 09-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 10:07 pm: |
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SDV is targeted toward lower viewing level channels, so theoretically, it wouldn't generate a large number of calls if there were problems. |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2424 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 09:00 am: |
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I suspect that they'll present all of the digital simulcast as switched broadcasts, including all of the rebroadcast standard-definition locals. I may be wrong, but they're currently experimenting with channels like Sci Fi. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Frank Black
Advanced Member Username: Frank_b
Post Number: 443 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 01:00 pm: |
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I checked my Power Level on my cable box. It was -13 dBmV. A neighbor checked his and it was -3. Anyone else checked their Power level? I am curious what some others are getting. Hold the Select button until the mail light comes on on the box. Then arrow down. Then 3 arrow pushes right. Then read the Power Level number. Exit key clears this. |
   
DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2927 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 04:15 pm: |
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-13dBmV is quite low, probably too much loss from splitters and/or internal coax. Check it right at the main cable source entry point of the house prior to any splitters and indoor wiring by temporaliy hooking up the cable box there and use a small TV or monitor to check the numbers. Should be near or above 0dBmV at that point. The FDC level should be checked first since its a baseline lower frequency. Then check the signal levels of a variety of digital/HD channels since the frequencies vary from low to high and the highest ones usually have the biggest attenuation over indoor coax. If the signal levels are low <-10dBmV even at the entry point main cable, TWC needs to fix it, might be a poor outdoor cable feed or a neighborhood amplifier or other equipment issue. I had old RG59 coax indoor cabling that I couldn't change out, so I compensated with my initial low signal levels <-13dBmv on some channels a couple years ago by adding a good low noise Electroline cable amplifier prior to all splitters at the main cable feed, adds +15dB to all signals. |
   
Frank Black
Advanced Member Username: Frank_b
Post Number: 444 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 04:01 pm: |
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I had the TW repair guy check my system today. He said he has 10-12 calls a day and ALL are the about the Switched Video issue and Channel Not Available problem. He said that most people with poor connections or lower signals are now having issues they never had before. My low signal problem was due to very long cable runs and some splitter issues. So with a new amp, several changes in the splitters; my signal is improved enough to stop the problem. I hope. |
   
Dana
Advanced Member Username: Danabw
Post Number: 463 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 04:35 pm: |
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OK - I'm confused. I show two pages w/the power setting...page 5 and 6 of the screens are the same info repeated twice - it is per tuner? Mine show: Page 5: -6 Page 6: -9 Anything to be concerned about? (Message edited by Danabw on July 22, 2008) |
   
DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2930 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 05:32 pm: |
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Yes each page is for the two different tuners, if you change channels you should see a different frequency usually between the two pages and different levels. Try selecting a variety of digital and HD channels and compare the levels, it can vary a lot. Some of the HD channels like HDnet and Universal-HD are above 700MHZ, a fairly high freq to check your signal up there. If you get some of the digital variety pack, I find the highest freq for me so far that I found was on channel 263, very high in the 700Mhz range. I don't think TWC goes higher than 800Mhz yet? |
   
DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2931 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 05:33 pm: |
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Is the channel not available message only happening on channels that people are getting too low of a signal on, not due to other problems with SDV? If you have good signal levels even at the high freq end (near 800Mhz) does that mean you won't get the channel not available messages supposedly? |
   
DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2932 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 05:37 pm: |
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From the earlier posts in this thread, TWC wasn't supposed to start the SDV channels until July 28, 2008 - yet from the problems folks have reported it seems they have started it over a week early. Why did TWC push up the timetable? |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1863 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 09:14 pm: |
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I've seen both 585 MHz and 747 MHz being used for SDV channels. If you have excessive frequency rolloff (e.g. old RF Splitter), it would probably affect 747 and not so much 585 MHz. ALL RF Splitters should be LABELED for at least 900 MHz and preferably 1 GHz. Current cable boxes/modems max out at 860 MHz. If you initiate a recording, it will "tie up" one of the two tuners, leaving the other tuner available to see which frequencies are in use for SDV, et. al. For some reason, page 1 info doesn't always make sense... |
   
Frank Black
Advanced Member Username: Frank_b
Post Number: 447 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 08:21 am: |
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Also check the FDC Power Level and the RDC Power Level. I was told these are two important numbers. Before the tech came to my home, I was at -14 and 58. Normal range needs to be (-10 to +10) and (30 to 50). After he left I get -4 and 50. |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2437 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 03:39 pm: |
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From the letter in the top post:"On July 28, 2008 Time Warner Cable will begin providing a number of our existing, less-viewed channels via SDV. Please see the reverse side of this letter for a list of these channels. This means that beginning July 28 you will not be able to view these channels on your one way CableCARD device." Well, it's the day specified on the letter and so far (as of 3:30 PM) they don't seem to have "thrown the switch" on switched broadcast (no pun intended ). I'm still getting the HD VIP Pak and The Tennis Channel on my CableCARDs (I use the HDNets, UHD and Tennis). I'm not complaining, mind you--just an observation. I'm actually hoping that they last through at least 5:00, after the first showing of Torchwood on HDNet. I've been watching the series and I'm not happy to have to finish on SD DVD; one more HD episode will be appreciated. (Message edited by mikeyts on July 28, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2943 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 04:56 pm: |
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Maybe it happens at the "witching hour" - midnight? |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2438 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 05:26 pm: |
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Yeah, but if they say the 28th and it's gonna happen at midnight, you'd expect it to happen at midnight on the morning of the 28th, not the next midnight, which is actually the first minute of the 29th. Happily, it still hasn't happened and I got a recording on that Torchwood episode . "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 117 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 07:30 pm: |
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I think it could be the 29th. Time warner likes to do things on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2440 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 07:49 pm: |
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Could be. I'm holding the paper letter in my hand and it clearly says the 28th, so I didn't transcribe it wrong. Maybe they intended to say "after the 28th" . "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 118 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:05 pm: |
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SDV is now active in TWC San Diego. HDnet now uses 747.000 MHz. Could mean more HD for us since Adelphia customers have a few extra ones. Maybe some more for the Olympics. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD
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DonRB
Advanced Member Username: Donrb
Post Number: 2944 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:19 pm: |
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So they made the switch to SDV just in time, in the last hour of July 28th? |
   
Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 119 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:31 pm: |
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Yep I think they did. ION network and a couple of SD channels are also at 585.000 MHz. Maybe there are a few more SDV frequencies. Some in the 700's and 600's. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2442 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 12:41 am: |
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Well, it hasn't gone into effect in my neighborhood yet. I still got the HD VIP Pak and Tennis. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2443 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 08:02 am: |
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I've lost access to the HD VIP Pak and all of the Sports Pak except for Tennis (the only one that I regularly watch ). Very strange, and I'm not expecting that to last. Nice, for however long it lasts, since Tennis is currently covering early round matches at the Cincinnati AMS tournament. Oh well. Bring on the Tuning Adapter ! (Message edited by mikeyts on July 29, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2444 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 08:40 am: |
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I have a sneaking suspicion that they moved all of the digital simulcast channels into switched broadcast as well, which would make the total 116 (111 SD + 5 HD). Can someone handy with the diags (like holl_ands ) check that? (Message edited by mikeyts on July 29, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Larry Greenwald
Advanced Member Username: Humdinger70
Post Number: 451 Registered: 09-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 09:00 am: |
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When changing channels, is there a way to detect that a channel is now on SDV? |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2445 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 09:19 am: |
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One sure way to know is if the system tells you "channel not available--try again later" . Hopefully that won't be happening. There's a way to tell, but it requires accessing the diagnostics and going to the right page for the information. Where that information is will vary--I'm certain that it's in a different place on boxes whose designation ends in "C" than on those that don't since they're running different versions of the software with different diagnostic pages. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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James Davis
Intermediate Member Username: Kamgol
Post Number: 31 Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 02:21 pm: |
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Now that these changes have taken effect (in most areas), it begs the question as to how soon all the "new" HD channels that the former Adelphia subscribers received will be coming our way. |
   
Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 121 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 03:01 pm: |
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I should say maybe this Thursday at the Earliest. Could be next week. Time Warner is announcing some NBC owned channels for the Olympics. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2452 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 10:07 am: |
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"I've lost access to the HD VIP Pak and all of the Sports Pak except for Tennis (the only one that I regularly watch )." As expected, I lost Tennis . Oh, well. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 186 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 06:56 pm: |
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Some say the tuning resolver could come in September. Maybe later than that though. They will probably gradually phase it which could take until 2009. By then Tivo could have a Series 4 with tru2way that supports SDV and all the cableco features and have Tivo. It would have a tivo mode and a tru2way/ocap mode. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 215 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 12:42 pm: |
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Time warner is going to start testing these in the next few weeks. It might not be until next year if it properly works. Could be here by December but november is what they are shooting for. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2497 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 05:07 pm: |
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Both Cisco and Moto have been testing their respective versions of these things against both versions of CableCARD TiVo (the only announced TA client) since they started development. It's far and away the most simple network application I've ever seen placed in a box by itself--sort of like a remote control that only turns a device on and off. They should work with no problem. The effort is in stocking them, training their field people to install them and their phone service folks in handling orders for them. When they feel comfortable that they've got that sorted out they can send out letters telling people that they can order them. As for me, I'm hoping to find another place and move before the end of next month, preferably into a Cox neighborhood where I won't have to worry about SDV yet, and hopefully they'll launch SDV and the tuning adapter together. Cox still doesn't have the HDNets, but they've got Sci Fi HD, Bravo HD and USA HD, which is some compensation. (Message edited by mikeyts on August 26, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Jeff_DML
Advanced Member Username: Jeff_dml
Post Number: 697 Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 09:13 am: |
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someone else big should be annoucing TA support:-) |
   
Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 257 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 03:53 pm: |
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More SDV channels are coming. VS/Golf HD, Starz HD, Cinemax HD, Lifetime Movie HD, Fox Sports HD, and NatGeo HD. I guess TWC can add even more HD channels. Having Lifetime Movie HD in SDV allows for Food Network, HGTV, Science Channel, and Disney to be in HD. Time Warner says the tuning resolver will come out later this year. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 259 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 04:00 pm: |
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The Changes will take in effect on October 27th. Cisco will provide the tuning resolvers. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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Gerald Toyen
Junior Member Username: Gtoyen
Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 05:28 pm: |
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I also got the letter from Time Warner cited in the above Posts. When I called the phone number listed in the letter to inquire about a special offer I found that the people at the phone bank including the people at customer retention ( superviser included) knew nothing of the new group of channels that were going SDV. They swore that Cinemax HD and National Geographic Channel were not going SDV. They also said that the special offer expired. Its clear to me that Time Warner doesn't have their act together. They send out letters without informing their customer service people of their plans. Are any of the alternate providers any better? |
   
Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 261 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 06:48 pm: |
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I guess Time Warner is got some communication issues. There was a letter from Bob Barlow that someone from TWC may join this forum. Apparently Bob Barlow and his new staff seem to be better. U-verse has multiroom DVR but their HD has limitations. Only can watch/record 2 HD shows at 1 time. The HD quality isn't the best. Directv and Dish have fairly good HD and they put out a lot of HD channels. They all require boxes on every TV but thats fine. You should be able to have a dish on your roof without any major problems with any of those HOA's. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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JimboG
Junior Member Username: Jimbog
Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 07:50 pm: |
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Just spent a little over an hour trying to talk with TWC's customer service folks about the new channels that Tivo customers are losing to SDV. One CSR transferred me to sales before I could explain my concern; the second was very friendly but placed me on hold where my call was dropped; and the third finally got a supervisor who knew nothing about the "special offer" for CableCard customers. Overall I'm not terribly impressed with TWC right now. The picture quality is better than U-Verse, which is one of the few things I can say in their favor. Launching SDV before the tuning adapters are available is unfortunate. Offering me fewer HD channels for the same price per month is unacceptable. As an HD viewer, Comedy Central and Adult Swim are then only HD channels that I watch. The number of HD channels that I can get through TWC that I cannot get for free over the air has dropped substantially from mid-July through the end of October. My cable billed has not moved down a bit. Moreover, I am concerned about the channels that are being cut in the latest round of SDV rollout. I spoke with the head of marketing for TWC San Diego and suggested that they move Lifetime Movies HD to SDV instead of HDnet or HDnet Movies. Here it is three months later and Lifetime Movies is going to SDV. That's three months that I could have enjoyed HDnet instead of not watching the crappy, mostly stretched SD histrionics on Lifetime. Frankly I'm also sick of being treated like a second class citizen because I don't live in the former Adelphia territory. TWC adds a few channels at a time, but doesn't add channels that have desirable content that's actually in HD (Sci-Fi HD, USA HD, FX HD, multicast premium channels from HBO, Cinemax, and Starz). They also decided it would be a good idea to drop the one HD channel they carry from both Starz and their own Cinemax channel. How can it possibly benefit TWC to lose the local revenue from these two premium channels and to lose the pass-through revenue from Cinemax that goes to their corporate parent?? This whole thing makes no sense. I suppose if TWC actually launches the tuning adapter any time soon much of this trouble will go away. However, with DirecTV's announcement of a new Tivo box next year I don't think I'll be with TWC much longer. |
   
Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 262 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 08:30 pm: |
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TWC already has FX HD. Brighthouse has it and one guy who has TWC in another area has it. I guess they completed the negotiations. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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JimboG
Junior Member Username: Jimbog
Post Number: 9 Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 09:38 pm: |
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Argh, numerous typos in my post above. I meant to say that Comedy Central, TCM, and Cartoon Network / Adult Swim are the only three *non*-HD networks that I still watch with any frequency. Cartoon Network HD is available from DirecTV, but apparently has little or no HD programming. TWC San Diego still doesn't offer all of its corporate parent's HD channels in most markets (multicasts of HBO and Cinemax for example). Simply unbelievable! |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2547 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:32 pm: |
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JimboG: "They also decided it would be a good idea to drop the one HD channel they carry from both Starz and their own Cinemax channel. How can it possibly benefit TWC to lose the local revenue from these two premium channels and to lose the pass-through revenue from Cinemax that goes to their corporate parent?? This whole thing makes no sense" I hadn't understood that they were dropping Cinemax HD and Starz HD, just that they were moving them to SDV. The problem is that they have no real concern for CableCARD using subs, who are probably less than one percent of their customers. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 263 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 03:39 pm: |
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Maybe TWC San Diego thats not ex Adelphia has an older 750 MHz network instead of a 1GHz network. Maybe not a 870 MHz network. I think ex Adelphia has a 870 MHz network with no VOD. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 264 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 04:04 pm: |
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The tuning resolver may happen in November. Probably the week of the 15th or later. Maybe december. It will require a truckroll. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 271 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008 - 11:46 pm: |
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One lucky person on tivocommunity.com got on some beta test for the tuning resolver in Austin, TX. Sounds very interesting. Would be nice to have. The tuning resolver would get more HD channels . Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 283 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2008 - 02:57 pm: |
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Comcast will start offering them next week. Of course this isn't for San Diego. Maybe it is coming soon. Comcast says it doesn't require a truck roll. It will probably force you to use the guided setup again but thats no big deal. So maybe you can go to the TWC office and just pick one up. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 286 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 02:46 pm: |
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Looks like that guy got his working. Shouldn't be too difficult to install. I'm sure TWC will require a stupid truckroll. I guess they are coming soon. TWC will use the Cisco models for our network. http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=406956 Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2578 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 05:47 pm: |
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Someone at TiVo Community Forums revealed today that he's run across a page at TWC San Antonio's site (here) where you can pre-order a Tuning Adapter. I looked at TWC San Diego's site and couldn't find such a page or announcement, but I did find this page on CableCARD, which talks about "Open Cable Products": quote:- Open Cable Products are two-way capable just like Time Warner Cable’s leased set top boxes and allow access to ALL of Time Warner Cable’s one-way and two-way services. We expect Open Cable Products to be available at retail in 2008.
They're obviously talking about products compliant with OpenCable's <tru2way> specification. They also give a link to an Acrobat file containing a list of channels which can be accessed with current Unidirectional Digital Cable Ready devices. (Message edited by mikeyts on October 09, 2008) "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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James Hookanson
Intermediate Member Username: Hook
Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 01:17 pm: |
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Just for laughs, I filled out that form and submitted it. Curious if T-W San Diego even sees it. |
   
Larry Greenwald
Advanced Member Username: Humdinger70
Post Number: 481 Registered: 09-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 01:21 pm: |
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Here's another reason why we don't get more HD channels. They're spending money on FCC ordered fines for implementing SDV!! See linked article: http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleID=CA6606078 |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1926 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 08:51 am: |
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Ch723 MOJO-HD and CH724 UNIV-HD are now SDV, joining HDNET, HDMOV, TLC-HD, DIS-HD, APL-HD and SCI-HD. Are these all now missing for TiVo and CableCARD DTV viewers??? Low-rez SDV channels appear to be unchanged: QVC(25), FSPRT(31), LIF(32), TRU(39), AMC(43), A&E(45), WE(54), SciFi(57), CMT(58), Hall(60), LMN(61), APL(64), TVLand(65), Golf(67), BET(69), Travel(70), ION(71) & TVGuide(99). MLB Game1-14(810-823), ESPNS1-6(860-865), NBAPrev(870) & NBA Team1-9(871-879). (Message edited by holl_ands on October 27, 2008) |
   
Larry Greenwald
Advanced Member Username: Humdinger70
Post Number: 486 Registered: 09-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 09:04 am: |
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How could you tell (without going to the diagnostics pages) that 723 and 724 are now SDV? |
   
holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1928 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 11:09 am: |
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Channel changing speed is the same...so you won't notice any difference. Unless you are unlucky enough to see the "Busy, Try Again" alert. Of course, if they ALSO dropped the fixed channel assignment, it will no longer be viewable by TiVo & CableCARD DTVs... A Cable Box can't see if fixed channel assignment still exists... unless it reappears as a new channel or SDV channel assignment... I'll be updating the rest of the assignments..."sometime soon"... (Message edited by holl_ands on October 27, 2008) |
   
Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2613 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 11:39 am: |
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holl_ands: "Ch723 MOJO-HD and CH724 UNIV-HD are now SDV, joining HDNET, HDMOV, TLC-HD, DIS-HD, APL-HD and SCI-HD" MOJO and Universal HD became SDV on July 28th, as stated in the letter that I quoted in the top post and I lost access to them on my TiVo from that date. (Disney HD, Animal Planet HD and Science HD were all added after that date and were never present on the wire as fixed linear services). "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1947 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2008 - 05:20 pm: |
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TWC-Austin (TX) has begun testing Cisco's SDV Tuning Adapters, with additional TWC regions by the end of 2008: http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=167248 The article talks about using SDV Tuning Adapters with not only TiVo S3/HD DVRs, but also CableCARD equipped, Digital Cable Ready (DCR) DTVs. However, I still have not heard of a single DCR DTV manufacturer announcing that they would provide a firmware update to work with the SDV Tuning Adapters.... PS: I'm going to suggest use of the full term "SDV Tuning Adapter" (aka Digital Tuning Adapter) to avoid confusion with the DTA (Digital Terminal Adapter) that is under test to move the Extended Analog Tier to digital. |
   
Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 351 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2008 - 08:02 pm: |
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I have spotted 735 MHz as a possible SDV frequency in the ODN diags. This could be the frequency allocated for some of the 8 to 13 HD channels. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2618 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 09:27 am: |
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Those of us waiting for the Tuning Adapter with bated breath simply refer to it as "the Tuning Adapter" or "the TA". I doubt that any of us could give a lesser damn about DTAs--the terms are highly unlikely to be used in the same conversation. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Jeff_DML
Advanced Member Username: Jeff_dml
Post Number: 739 Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 09:32 am: |
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you guys should care if you want more HD channels:-) those crappy analog channels are taking up a lot of bandwidth. If they have the extra bandwidth it could take some of the pressure off moving channels to SDV. |
   
Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 352 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 11:01 pm: |
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Terapix is also an option. Probably not for home users. Could be ideal for retirement homes, hotels, hospitals, and assisted living. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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Michael Scott
Advanced Member Username: Mikeyts
Post Number: 2624 Registered: 08-2003
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 08:27 am: |
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Why would you think that it's not an option for home users? Drop a box in the attic between the outside line and the inside cabling and you're golden. It's not cheap, but it's far less offensive than DTAs, even if they're free. Most people without cable boxes don't do without them because they don't want to pay for them, but because they don't want to have to deal with them. "Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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Michael Horgan
Advanced Member Username: Rendezvous65
Post Number: 354 Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 06:10 pm: |
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I I too think it's an option as well but we should never rule that out. Still heard a rumor that TWC will eliminate expanded basic in February. Digital Cable equipment Samsung LN-R408D w/ TWC SA8300HDC Samsung LN-T1953 w/ TWC SA4250HDC Panasonic 13" TV/VCR combo w/ TWC SA3250HD NEC 20WMGX2 w/ the same TWC SA3250HD as the panny SD combo.
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holl_ands
Advanced Member Username: Holl_ands
Post Number: 1989 Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 02:11 pm: |
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SDV CHANNEL UPDATE: List of SDV channels in the first post is nearly complete, although GSN and NBA-TV are not yet SDV...and Gol-TV isn't active (yet). On TWC-SD website, under Product/DigitalCable/CableCARD there is an Oct2008 list of channels viewable by CableCARD customers: http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/57/Content%20Management/Documents/ CableCardChannelsSD.pdf Many are now SDV...although TWC-SD may be retaining linear simulcasts.... Perhaps someone with a CableCARD HDTV or TiVo can check the list???? =============================================== Low-rez Digital Simulcast SDV channels (cable box only) are unchanged: QVC(25), FSPRT(31), LIF(32), TRU(39), AMC(43), A&E(45), WE(54), SciFi(57), CMT(58), Hall(60), LMN(61), APL(64), TVLand(65), Golf(67), BET(69), Travel(70), ION(71) & TVGuide(99). Plus MLB Game1-14(810-823), ESPNS1-6(860-865), NBAPrev(870) & NBA Team1-10(871-860). Fol. are NEW SDV channels unavailable to CableCARD viewers: Daystar, BYU, Hallmark Movie Channel, TVJapan, TBS-HD, TLC-HD, DIS-HD, APL-HD, SCI-HD and BIG10-HD. With more to come..... =============================================== SDV CHANNELS UNAVAILABLE TO CableCARD VIEWERS: East Coast Premiums: HBO East, Showtime East, Starz East [West coast channels still available with CableCARD.] Variety Pack: Daystar, BYU, Hallmark Movie Channel International Premiums: Filipino Channel, Saigon Broadcast TV, TVJapan Movie Package: Encore East, Encore Action East, Encore Mystery East, Encore True Stories East, Encore Westerns East, Encore Love Stories East Spanish Language Package: Cine Latino, Sopresa, Fox Sports en Espanol, MUN2, MTV-Tr3s, Video Rola, Canal Sur, CNN en Espanol, Discovery Espanol, Boomerang Espanol, Toon Disney Espanol, EWTN Espanol, ESPN Deportes, Gol-TV(not yet in lineup) Sports Package: ESPNU, ESPNEWS, ESPN Classic, SPEED, Fox Soccer Channel, FCS Pacific, FCS Central, FCS Atlantic, HorseRacing TV, Tennis Channel, GSN(not yet SDV), NBA-TV(not yet SDV), Fuel, CBS College Sports Network [New Big10-SD is not (yet) SDV.] High Definition Channels: Universal-HD, MGM-HD (ex MOJO), HDNet, HDNet Movies, NBA-TV-HD, TBS-HD, TLC-HD, Disney-HD, APL-HD, SCI-HD, Big10-HD ================================================ I observed EIGHT active SDV frequencies: 555, 585, 711, 717, 723, 729, 735 and 747 MHz Previously: 555 carried 8 SD, incl. SCI, OXY, DTime, et.al. 585 didn't carry anything I could "see" (probably VOD/OnDemand). 711 & 729 carried fixed Digital Simulcast assignments. [There are four other D-S QAM channels...not yet SDV.] 717 carried SHO-E (now SDV) and only 6 other SD. 723 carried HDNET & HDMOV....now SDV. 735 carried Encore Pack, incl six East coast feeds...now SDV 747 only carried SOAP, OMAX and 5*MAX (that I could see). FWIW: Analog Basic/Extended Tier remains unchanged since (???) April. |
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